Any body got any questions about hung gar or five animals styles?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Tom bayley, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Fish - do I remember correctly that you have a background in physio? If so do you have any good cutaway anatomical diagrams showing how the muscles attach in and around the pelvic girdle? My anatomical understanding is very limited on how the pelvis works and how muscles with attachment points in/on the pelvis link the bottom half of the body to the top half.

    Until recently I have had a very crude model in my mid of the pelvis simply acting as a skeletal frame to provide a socket for the top of the leg bones to fit into. But recently (while reading a tie chi book) I had one of those moments where things click. And I realised that the mechanics of hung gar make use of the muscles within the pelvic girdle in different ways to moderate the linkage between the top half of the body with the bottom half. Or put another way rather than the skeleton of the pelvis holding the muscles up, it is the muscles within the pelvis and pelvic floor that hold the skeleton up. and that my understanding of the anatomy of the pelvis and how it works is virtually non existent.
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've posted this resource before, it's really incredible. It's an online interactive anatomy model. Make sure you read how to use it first to get the most out of it, click on the question mark on the left: ZygoteBody

    It's the psoas major and minor that attach the inside of the spine to the front of the pelvis, and the multifidus that goes up either side of the spine from the coccyx to the ribcage.
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Moderator Supporter

    Multifidus runs across the entire back of the spine up to the top of the neck, and psoas originates on the side of the lumbar spine plus the back of the diaphragm and attaches to the femur, not the pelvis ;)

    @Tom bayley : I study physio, yes, although Late for Dinner is the Mapper to ask about physio stuff. re: diagrams: that's... going to be a lot of links. Gimme a while :p
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I have a cunning plan to get you to post a few images, then to get you to explain how the pelvic girdle works. Having the pictures is fine but I was hoping to get you to explain how the skeletal muscular system of the pelvis works while it its in motion and when force is being transfered through it.
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Moderator Supporter :p
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Moderator Supporter

  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Many thanks fish. Huge benefit from seeing how the muscles attach and also how the pelvis is orientated rather than going by feel alone.

    Other than the ilioposas Muscles. Are there any other muscle groups that directly attache the spine to the legs?

    I have been imagining that the pelvis is like a ring and the muscles that connect the legs and lower back pass though the ring. but looking at the pictures it would appear that no muscles actually pass though the pelvis. the posas muslces seam to come from the lower back and to descend at a downward angle from front to back then to pass outside the front of the pelvis though a notch. So they might behave like they do pass all the way though so long as the notch does not impede movement to much.

    Is that correct? That would also mean that thier is a physical connection between the top front of the legs and the lower back. that would allow spiralling tension generated in the legs and to pass to the lower back.

    It also could be that what feels to me an opening of the pelvis in iron wire/shanshin when using the full body as a bow is actually a slight rotation of the pelvis in the vertical plane (tucking the tail bone) that then alows the muscles that attach on the outside of the pelvis from above and below to act as if they are continuous by using the pelvis as a pivot/lever.
  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    It is possible to use a second balloon in the the tent balloon analogy. the lungs being the principle balloon but the stomach being a second. breathing out of the lungs and into the stomach can generate pressure in the lower abdomen (reverse abdominal breathing). this has several effects, one of them is to put pressure on the bottom of the diaphragm forcing air out, reducing the residual volume and increasing tidal volume. When Practising this breathing regularly my body tends to switch into it automatically when doing very strenuous activity e.g cycling up long hills.
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Moderator Supporter

    @Tom bayley: The pelvis actually does close via ligaments, creating several foramina around protrusions on the bone: through one of which the psoas passes, although yes, no muscles actually pass through the bony ring of the pelvis, which is blocked off by the pelvic floor muscles (sphincters plus supporting muscles and connective tissues). Closest thing to another direct muscular spine-leg connection would be gluteus maximus, which has attachments at the sacrum and thoracolumbar fascia (so it doesn't come out of the lumbar vertebrae per se, but pulls on connective tissue that does, and applies force to the sacrum which is part of the spine). Additionally, since the feet/legs are both a fixed point and a support base, all of the muscles connecting pelvis to femur (rectus femoris, hamstrings, adductor group, glutes, deep rotators) can change the position of the pelvis, thus the position of the spine, same with all of the muscles that move the pelvis from above (spinal erectors, QL, abdominal wall, maybe lats if the hands are a fixed point) affecting the hip joints.
    Yes to physical connection between lower back and legs, AND also diaphragm, since the psoas interdigitates with it (this can be felt by deep breathing and playing with air pressure while doing a side bending stretch), and yes to using the pelvis as a lever. Remember that the less that the pelvis actually moves, the more, and the more strongly the upper body will move, as the muscles will pull on both indiscriminately (all a muscle does is shorten, everything else is external constraints such as ligaments, and fixed vs free points of attachment).
    Two balloon analogy is absolutely correct. Diaphragm down pulls lungs down to fill them and presses down on abdominal viscera at the same time. Pelvic floor and abdominal wall relax to mitigate pressure increase or contract to increase it (pushing viscera back up into diaphragm and thus lungs/thorax). Thoracic muscles also lift the ribcage, decreasing pressure unless air is let in, or depress it, increasing pressure unless air is let out.

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