Bringing Aikido to a Fist Fight: an Anecdote

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Jitsuka, Jun 30, 2017.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    Meh, it's no big deal and we all have those kinda days
  2. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Wayde (I'll call you Wayde, I dislike internet pseudonyms).

    An interesting point. I'm not very interested in combat sports, but since I started in Judo could you possibly describe "clinch skills"? I've always thought the Kito/Tenshin Shinyo/Daito-ryu MMA was a good MMA, then I realised that's more or less Aikido, but with added kenjutsu. As much as Ueshiba disliked competition (as do I) I found Tomiki's approach very logical. While Kano apparently referred to Aikido as "perfect budo" I'm not an orthodox kind of guy, and have a kind of "pop-culture obsession" with the general MMA misinterpretation of the art I teach.

    By "clinch" do you mean "the body of the short armed monkey" as Musashi said? Or tighter "lock 'em up" jujutsu? I'd probably attempt to add an "up tight bum" joke here (I'm Australian, swearing and killing crocodiles is second nature) but I've got a warning already about profanity so I'll keep the question short and sweet.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    'Clinch" generally refer to the positioning within the exchange whereby both parties have hold of each other - Muay Thai is the most obvious "non grappling" example, but the collar and elbow of wrestling and the jacket and sleeve grab of Judo/BJJ are the more obvious illustrations.

    The Aikido clinch game is poor to non existent, but that's because it is a "graduate system" - in other words the expectation was that you could actually motor before learning it. This is why Kano sent his Dan grades to Ueshiba - refinement to their fighting.

    If you try to learn Aikido as a complete system in and of itself you are starting off on the wrong foot. First it isn't a complete system, and second it does not provide solid combative fundamentals - but in both cases it doesn't really claim to do them so it's not really a mark against it,

    Tomiki competition is appalling and has as much combat application as a pillow fight - anyone with even a sniff of weapons training would carve them up without even blinking
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  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    By clinch fighting I mean standing grappling when both people have a hold on each other, its the same reason why the samurai trained and competed in sumai/sumo back in the day.

    The person who controls the clinch, controls the fight, judoka have excellent standing grappling.
  5. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Arigato Wayde-san.

    Dame dame.

    I'm afraid you've fallen victim the the good old reason why the Nidai Doshu (Kisshomaru) kicked his dad out. "My father was not a pacifist" was unlikely to spread the version of the art you're referring to, which is quoted from him, referring to Morihei. Regardless of the "aiki is defeating the opponent at a glance" (Takeda Dai-sensei, Daito-ryu) and "the art of peace" thingo, I simply know for a fact I was trained in the art of cutting peoples heads off - or: "the gentle art of hitting people with planets".

    Mostly, if I wanted a fight, I'd walk outside and ask the neighbour who shot at my house to clean up his bullet casings.
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    That sounds very much like an appeal to authority.

    Have you ever tried or succeded throwing an unwilling participant?
  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I'm curious Hanny, when would you recommend someone starting aikido? I'm a fairly incompetent grappler, but I know a double leg from my single.
  8. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Indeed. I have lost both the ring finger of my right hand (I was formerly a bass player, but still left handed) and have had my shoulder ripped out of its socket because I was an ikkyu in the Iwama style, which promotes maximum resistance in order to gain Shodan.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    So iwama has randori at the shodan test?
    Is that the only time randori is done?

    Is randori ever done at levels that dont permenantly disable you?
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

  11. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong


    I was last involved in Iwama Aikido (in a dojo) in '06-07.
    Iwama style doesn't have randori, but it does have jiyu-waza. For ease of reading, situation (then) in pointform:

    *My Shihan was Japanese, and considered any injury "bad" (very "Aikido" I guess)
    * A "trial" was held (my Sensei ran a private dojo) and the "shoulder incident" involved a shidoshi being expelled.
    * The "finger thing" was a judoka (sportsman) who I cross trained with at a local Judo club.
    * Jiyu-waza was forbidden without my Shihan's presence (he was not present)
    * I did not pass my Shodan then.

    "Iwama style" is commonly called a "hard style". I'd refer you to some Meik & Dianne Skoss articles about the methodology, but sadly I cannot find them (I still look for them often).
    Said art is politically split, and I care not for politics. I teach "Aiki Budo" independently of "Aikido".

    And for the punchline:

    *If you trained in the Iwama dojo and entered while a stick (bokken) knocks you unconscious....
    ...that's how I got trained.

    RE: last post: the judoka twisted the finger (in Aikido we "splay" our fingers) and shattered it. He hated the art, wanted to prove it un-meritable (may still do). The ring finger of what was once my "fret hand" is now a titanium rod. Living tissue, over metal endoskeleton.
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    How did you actually lose a finger though, ive broken plenty of fingers in judo and BJJ, but ive never heard of anyone losing one?
  13. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Oh, it just fell off.

    Nah, it shattered. I lost my career as a bass player. Considering what I played back then, the "big man" did me a favour! You gotta laugh about stuff like that. I can still hear my shoulder click every time it moves. Broken finger, but gained an inbuilt metronome.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    so why didnt you get it pinned?
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    No I am fully aware of what Aikido - and Aikijutsu and Aikibujutsu - claim to be and nothing you have posted mitgates that

    Ironically if you glance around MAP there is actual evidence (vs anecdote) of me doing an aiki style takedown against someone "boxing" me

    One in my intsructors - Professor James Hundon - also can show against significant flow under pressure that has an Aiki none of what I am saying invalidates the system (far from it) but shows that on its own it is not complete

    Also worth pointing out Chiba lost to Wang, so perhaps we should consider Bagua as a better option too :)
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    Ah so you've still got all your fingers!

    That makes far more sense!

    Yep splaid fingers are much easier to break then all of them together, Did Daito ryu use the splayed fingers too?
  17. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

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  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    When you have a solid enough base/support system

    This need not be grappling - though minimum blue belt BJJ or equivalent would be my base for that - but rather any pressure tested and consistent primary offensive style such as boxing or muay thai to a reasonable level of compotency
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  19. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    @Wayde, there's quite a lot of splayed finger stuff in Daito-ryu, but to a lesser extent than Aikido. The splaying is part of the somewhat different approach to bodybuilding we use, at least in Iwama style. It exercises the fingers, just as does our funny looking "grab my wrist" stuff (which we do full force). Swordsmen tend to have muscular hands. In actual applied self defense, we don't splay our fingers (much) for obvious reasons (or I don't anyway).

    @Van Zandt, hahahaha @ meme thingo.

    @Hannibal, I'm somewhat curious as to what you mean "Chiba lost to Wang". Are you referring to that awesome portly Chinese guy who belted the crap out of a whole bunch of silly "aikidoka" who couldn't understand aiki doesn't involve matches or competition? Regardless of what rank Chiba then held, he obviously either completely ignored Ueshiba or was willfully ignorant of the function of his own art. I'm an MMA guy myself, and I'm fully aware matches are the measure of MA to some people and we aikidoka infuriate them with our "peace-and-mung-bean" routine, but I stand by that statement.

    I understand a question above wasn't directed towards me, but if I was to enter Aikido to broaden fighting skills (knowing what I now know) I'd probably train in one of the soft styles - or even the Takumakai/Roppokai schools of Daito-ryu - rather than hard style like Yoshinkan/Iwama etc. The neural rewiring is pretty extreme, and prior body-knowledge can be burdensome. This said, an MMA mate of mine (with about 20 years experience) picked up Aikido in no time, so I guess it's really just the person.
  20. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Maybe I'll give it a shot sometime. I feel comfortable with striking, grappling, and takedowns, so... well, who knows.

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