Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Aegis, Feb 21, 2010.
ATA has got to be up there with them...
Yeah, they would be another one.
In like manner, some variants of Hapkido such as Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do and Hankido have adopted a range of Chinese practices and execution. hosinsool Along with Taekwondo, Hapkido has helped to revitalize traditional Korean martial arts by providing systemization and incorporating into other styles.
I have just watched some more uploaded CKD on You Tube. It is getting worse & worse. Patterns.....endless patterns, how many up to black belt now? There is virtually no getting the student ready for a real encounter on the streets. I have seen some pad work, where the holder is holding the pads about 3 feet apart, who has a head that big on the streets, and, it is never corrected. It is truly awful and am glad I left this farce 20 years ago.
I believe it's one pattern per grade to black belt, so 18. Every other pattern was a repeat of the previous one but adjusted to include turning through four quarter-turns through the pattern to repeat the action in the four cardinal directions.
It used to be 10 if my memory is correct.....18. They must spend all their time just doing them, again what a waste of time and effort, oh yes Choi's right hand man used to be my instructor for a short while until he went to US
Choi Kwang Do.....Farce.
Please, if any new instructor in this 'art' is contemplating leaving, do it and do it now. Go along to any British Combat Association seminar or join one of there affiliated clubs and learn to pressure test your techniques. DO NOT DELAY and get sucked in
Just watched on You Tube the 'Giving out of MASTER grade black belts' at the 30th anniversary seminar. I have never seen a such a massed number of masters given their belts like this, and half of them are obese!!!!! I have recently been in contact again via facebook with my old Black Belt instructor in TKD who at that time (late 70s London) was a 2nd Dan now he is sent all over the world by the kukkiwon in Korea, he is a very nice humble man who is a 8th Dan now and in his mid 60s who can do chin ups (seen it) I would like to see the so called out of shape masters I have just seen on you tube try it. Also to recap on these health benefit claims. Been in contact with an American CKD Instructor who assured me he would give me proof of these claims, my son and I are still waiting 5 months on. I implore any CKD Instructor or student, please, please see the light there are some fantastic 'style Instructors' or Instructors like 'The Pit' in Hawaii (look at his you tube page) who specialise in reality training and of course like the BCA in England. Change, do it now before it's to late.
Sparkles, can you please post the link to the YouTube video?
This article just keeps resurfacing!
Like an unflushable jobby!
My wife and I just started in Choi Kwang Do a couple of weeks ago, not long after our daughter started classes. Thus far it has been a positive experience. Since most of the replies to this post have been negative, I thought I would some of the positive aspects of Grandmaster Choi's teachings.
No one here has mentioned the fact that there are no organized competitions in Choi Kwang Do. No tournaments. No medals. No trophies. No podiums. No National or World Champions. No Referees. No World Cups. Although some may perceive this as a huge missing element, many practitioners of CKD love it. In many other martial arts, competition is a major focus of the organization, and is often the primary focus. Whenever you walk into a Karate Dojo, a TKD Dojang, etc, the walls a are plastered with gleaming medals, trophies, and dozens of pictures of students standing on podiums.Even the names of these organizations often include the word "championship" in the title (e.g. "Championship Karate.") Although I have a great deal of due respect for the effort and training that went in to these awards, this sight can be extremely intimating to a neophyte who has no interest in competition. Some organizations will try to temper this anxiety by pointing out that competition is not required, and that some students never compete at all. However, the pressure is still applied every time the student sees a new trophy, reads a Facebook post about another successful tournament, or reads a magazine that has the world's most successful competitors plastered on its front. The aspect of competition dramatically affects the fundamental focus of the organization's mission. This change starts with the instructor's relationship with their students, and goes all the way up to the senior administrators of the international organization. A great deal of time is spent teaching students the rules of competition, and preparing them for competitions. Time that could be spent learning new skills in class is spent traveling to and participating tournaments. Of course, the expense of this travel and the entry fees for competitions are above and beyond the cost of instruction. I was heavily involved with Fencing for over 20 years. Fencing is one of the few original sports in the Modern Olympic Games that is still contested today. As such, the aspect of competition is paramount. Most coaches encourage their students to compete, and many students attend a competition almost every single weekend. The only fencing magazine in the USA that is in print is American Fencing, which is published by US Fencing, the National Governing Body for the sport. Every single American Fencing cover features one or more elite athletes who has/have performed very well at a recent an international tournament. Many of the articles in the magazine share a similar focus. Although some articles offer useful hints to the 99.9% of the fencers who will never even get close to qualifying for a World Cup competition, A newbie who is reading the magazine understands that many coaches hope and pray that a few of their students will become elite athletes. When I started with CKD, I was a bit disappointed about the lack of a competitive aspect. However, I have since discovered that my instructors care about my individual development, first and foremost. When class starts, they are not focuses on how poor or successful the Dojang did at some tournament last weekend. They are not all all concerned about preparing their students for the tournament that is coming up on the following weekend. I quickly realized that my disappointment was related to the fact that the lack of competition was simply foreign to me. This is understandable, since I spent about half my life in as a competitor and coach in a sport that was very competitive. I love fencing, and I hope to return to it someday. However, for the time being, I don't miss attending competitions. If a someone who is interested in Martial Arts has ambitions of decorating his or her bedroom with medals and trophies, CKD is probably the worst choice for that individual. However, if a neophyte wants instructors who are not coaches, and who are only concerned about his or her individual development, then CKD may be a better choice that many other mainstream martial arts.
Many people who have offered input in this thread have claimed that CKD poorly prepares its students for street fights. Although this is true, this also holds true for all martial arts. Any martial art, including CKD, will help it students develop quick reflexes. This still can be a secondary asset in a street fight. CKD, and all other martial arts have a very strict and specific set of rules when it comes to throwing punches at others, and students are under strict orders to adhere to these rule at all times. Of course, the vast majority of punks who start fights on the street are competently ignorant of these rules. The few who have received some kind of martial arts training are going to ignore these rules altogether. You will never see 3 punks armed with guns or knives attacking a black belt at a Karate competition, but this happens every day on our streets. When it comes to street fights, teaching students to be confidant and teaching them strategies to AVOID fights are far more useful than the actual techniques only work against assailants in the controlled environment of a dojo, dojang, tournament, etc. Students who are truly interested in defending themselves in street fights should take a self-defense course. Instructors in these courses (many of whom are, ironically, accomplished and respected martial arts masters) will shamelessly teach techniques that are designed to inflect a great deal of pain, and/or injuries that requires medical attention. Many of these techniques are designed to incapacitate on assailant to prevent them from standing up. These techniques include things such as harsh attacks to the groin, knees, neck, mouth eyes. These attacks are ILLEGAL in the marital arts, and are therefore DISCOURAGED, since they may result in severe injury, permanent injury/disability, and/or death.
A few people brought up an interesting points about fitness, and observed that there is a higher percentage of obese individuals in CKD. I admit that my observations support this claim, at least to an extent. To be fair, many CKD students, and the vast majority of instructors are in very good shape. For the most part, the class routines in CKD are not focused on activities that demand endurance, such as running, push-ups, etc. It is therefore very easy for someone who is out of shape physically (like me!) to participate in class. I have no doubt that other martial arts that focus more on high-endurance calisthenics will be more successful in helping its students get into shape. Quite frankly, a CKD student who wants to loose a significant amount of weight will need to exercise outside of class to achieve this goal. However, is is very nice that CKD's system does not ostracize people who are not in great physical shape. Furthermore, the mental and spiritual teachings of CKD (and most other martial arts, to be fair,) often encourage students to take the initiative to improve their our health. This can lead to a student taking steps to loose weight, and to improve their life in other ways.
I do disagree with CKD advertising itself as being the "the most effective martial arts system in the world." This is because it is "the most effective" for some people, and ineffective for others. Of course, the same can be said for every other martial art in the world. As a general rule, I think it is a fallacy for any organization to make broad, general claims such as this in their advertising media. When all is said and done, a given martial art is going to be ideal for some students, while being a poor choice for other students. Beginners who are looking for a teaching environment that is void of competitive pressure and focused solely on individual development should definitely consider CKD. Others who have a lot of interest in testing their skills against others in an organized competitive environment should not consider CKD at all. Students who only want to learn how to defend themselves in a street fight should avoid martial arts altogether, and take a course that is only focused on self-defense.
Welcome to MAP.
I'm glad your experiences in CKD have been positive and it's great that you are training as a family.
In regard to self defence instructors "shamelessly teaching techniques that are designed to inflect a great deal of pain, and/or injuries that requires medical attention", I'm afraid that is incorrect.
A good self defence system should be legally underpinned, that is to say it should teach the students the moral, legal and ethical implications of their actions.
It should teach the student how to justify their course of action, be that from a shove to potentially taking a life.
Both of those examples are fine, as is everything in between, provided you are justified in your actions.
It's not the techniques that are illegal, but the situation in which they are used.
If a class isn't based around self defence (and that's fine), there is no need to exclude the techniques.
Training is a compromise and many classes will use armour, headguards, eye/face shields to work eye jabs and so on.
I would also disagree that those with an interest in self defence should avoid martial arts and just take a self defence course.
Many self defence courses are downright dangerous and expose the student to techniques and role playing drills that will turn them into the victim.
The reason is the so called instructors have no understanding, or experience.
A good martial arts school/instructor gives you the framework on which to base your self defence system.
In my experience those who just train because they enjoy it stick will it longer and get more fun from it.
Those that try and justify their art against another just get caught up in a minefield of argument and counter-argument.
Stick with it and don't get caught up in why CKD does or doesn't do certain moves.
Thread resurrection from a board newbie.
This is funny. I am a black belt in CKD. I got my black belt back in 1997 when I was 22 years old. I can share my experiences.
The style has gone downhill since I left them in 1998, but the truth is it had already gone downhill in the time I trained with them, starting back in 1993. There were some (not all) good, capable instructors back then, but most of them had years of experience in other styles before they came over to CKD...I could go on for days about the experiences I had in CKD, but I will try to be brief.
My instructor was a solid guy, and a good practitioner, but an even better teacher. I don't know how it is today, but back then, at least in my particular case, we would spar with intensity, though not until we reached some level of proficiency. I must say that my instructor had much more intensity with me than with most other students, simply because he knew that was what I wanted. I worked hard and he appreciated my desire to learn. I believe in learning the hard way, and so did he. Unfortunately most did not share our enthusiasm for hard contact.
The organization as a whole produced low skilled, soft practitioners who were there to pat each other on the back and give encouragement. Nothing wrong with encouragement or being nice, but this was supposed to be martial arts training for self defense, and not what I considered very realistic for defending one's self in the street. Show up for class, give a half hearted effort, pay your monthly dues, and pay for your tests...Pretty bogus. I was fortunate to have an instructor who was tough, capable, and a good teacher. Of course like most of the truly capable instructors who were once a part of CKD, he left in the 90's and never looked back. I soon followed.
One other thing I will point out in regards to my own experience. My instructor would not send anyone to their "test" if he felt they had not earned it. This is one thing I liked about him. He considered the time, effort, and improvement to be the test, since no one else would hold an honest, accountable standard...Not everyone is at the same skill level. Some people have more natural ability. It's a fact of life. So my instructor would try his best to judge each student by their own capabilities. It was the only way he could hold his nose and promote them...Eventually it got the better of him.
It was pathetic how many students from other schools would be promoted with no skill whatsoever. I never once saw or heard of anyone failing a test. Not once...Because it was not a test.
Chief instructors had to toe the line with the higher up CKD brass, and make sure they were churning out students to their promotions so they could continue collecting their testing fees ($55 per test back then). This is one of the many reasons my instructor and I both left CKD.
CKD is a money hungry organization that churns out students with belt promotions who have no skills. Just like cattle. Pay the money, get the belt. Looking at recent videos shows me how bad it has become. It is a complete joke. Much worse than it was 20+ years ago, and it wasn't great back then either.
I am from the Atlanta area so I was right here at the heart of it all. Other than the same 2-3 guys at the head of CKD (Kwang Jo Choi and sidekick) none of the chief instructors from my time are there any longer or have any affiliation with them whatsoever. There are reasons for it.
I went on to boxing, kickboxing and BJJ. I do not regret it.
My suggestion to anyone who is looking for serious, real world self defense instruction should look elsewhere. CKD is not completely useless as a style, but the organization stinks and their last concern is your improvement or ability to defend yourself.
My 2 cents for what it's worth.
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