Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by MaxG, Aug 16, 2005.
The limited Kajukenbo and Wun Hop Kuen Do histories are accurate.
Hello Kempo ppl, a question.
Have you ever seen this guy Taika Oyata that might be his father.
Was wondering what any of you might know about this person or his style i use to live in Kansas City an he was in Independance but just wondered if you knew more about were that system comes from. Reason i ask he is the one that brought out the big deal about being able to knock out ppl by hiting points on the body but an instructor that once studied from him said he was very harsh so harsh he would knock all his students out every now an then an change the name of the school for what reason no one knew. George Dilman studied Bunkia from him. He when i meet him was a person of distance almost no conversation came from him.
More information wondered if you knew what area of Japan Exactly he came from. I know it was Okinawa have real questions of who he really is. There is somthing strange there is all.
He has system called Ryukyu Kempo that is why i ask a kempo forum.
Contact Robert Rousselot on ebudo or martial talk. He was trained personaly by Oyata. He now lives and teaches in Japan so he would be one of the better contacts to discuss this with.
Rob has been banned from MT for a while now.
Oyata teaches his family's okinawan kempo.
Dillman did learn some things from him but the divide between Oyata and Dillman is deep and angry. people that are familiar with both are teaching say that Dillman only learned the most superficial things from Oyata.
I'm not sure what you are asking about his father?
The topic is being discussed at www.SanJoseKenpo.com now. Interesting what is coming up IMHO.
I believe the abrupt way of attacking, is why James Mitose quit teaching his Art of Self Defense...
They are not a responsible thing to do in a society as we have in the US of A. Litigation is very high, and to hurt others like you can with these strikes are very inappropriate. Or so the court system has upheld.
And to think that much of these systems were designed and developed by people who were in the LEO profession, at one time or another.
"At a senior level there are no banned targets or techniques and strikes are full power".
That is scary... So eye gouges, throat and groin shots as well as low kicks are allowed?
Seems like there would be serious injuries every time out-
Again, I'll mention:
I have talked about this when I was a LEO years ago and even then it was frowned on to strike these areas. It was one thing to restrain or submit but quite another to do the type of damage that is done with these types of strikes. They are shown not just to Black Belts but to all who are in the art of Kajukenbo. The DVDs are full of these strikes and kicks.
It is pretty much of an art where it is buyer beware. But I am certain it is taught with discretion in today's world, or should be.
When taught to school children, some of the more damaging strikes are left out or changed. When they transition to the adult class, they are put back in. The idea is that it's not cool to have one's automatic response when attacked to be eye strikes and groin shots when one is at elementary school. However, when one reaches some maturity, it makes no sense to teach people nice ways of hurting someone.
I don't believe the idea is to hurt, it is to stop and restrain. Many tools are put at your disposal, as a LEO.
If you are not able to stop them and the others have a weapon or are much bigger or stronger. If they have hurt others to some degree it is appropriate to do what it takes, I think.
But really most people try to make them stop by grabbing the hands or other means. Most of the time you are involved with family disputes, it mentions about LEO. So I would say that is where most of the problems are also.
So are you going to do it (injury) to a brother or father or mother?
In a bar, when someone is going to hurt you it might be different, but most of those locations have bouncers and it is best not to be the aggressor I have found.
Because if you are the aggressor you will go to jail also. Many times you will be the one to be hurt by others too. Hurting is not the key, it is stopping and restraining, I have found in the art of LEO.
I really can't see you using what you say on a school campus, Dan. If that were the case you would be in deep dododododo. IMHO So why do you advocate it here?
I receive the "Thin Blue Line" magazine/newspaper each month from the protective league. This is a common thing about being over zealous in today's life as a "Crime stopper copper". You will be the criminal real quick...
I have more than one tool to use. Kajukenbo is designed for a specific reason and restraint wasn't really one of them.
I can understand that. One of the reasons I believe it has serious fighting abilities. I find the arts of Walter Godin to be good, from what I have read and seen from the Pit.
I think you have to give some of the credit to W. Chow as well as to Mitose in the design of it though, especially when you see the arts being performed and the way that Thomas Mitose has directed the teaching, in his style.
Bruce Juchnik has quite a different art, but it does have some similarity to the others. You have to wonder which came first? If we look at the book and the information from J. Mitose it seems his is first (book being written and published at a later date) but the time frame is earlier/later than the art of Sijo Emperado.
I had heard the art of Kajukenbo was developed later, not before Mitose's book. Maybe you could explain why others mentioned it was after Mitose left the Islands, not before? That it was actually revealed to the public.
Bill Ryusaki, would be one who could fill in the space's, I would think. Since he was in Hawaii and then the mainland, being he was in John Leonings school and lineage. Then went on, to his own school etc..
Spend more time there: http://seinenkai.com/
A lot to learn. People ignore that site and the writings of people like Bruce Haines, who researched the development of Karate in Hawaii.
The idea that James Mitose introduced "Kenpo" or "Kempo" to Hawaii is ludicrous. Early Okinawan karate was commonly referred to as "Ryukyu Kenpo Karate", or "Okinawan Kempo Karate". It was practiced in Hawaii as early as 1868 by Okinawan immigrants to Hawaii. One famous migrant was Watoku Higa, who came to Hawaii in 1905. His grandfather was the founder of the "Matsubayashi" style of "Shorin Ryu".
Ryukyu Kenpo was formally introduced to the Hawaiian public by Kensu Yabu in 1927 in a demonstration at the Nuuanu YMCA. He stayed in Hawaii for 5 months and taught Thomas Miyashiro and Kiso Teruya.
In 1933, Zuiho Mutsu and Kamesuke Higaonna taught nightly classes for Miyashiro at the Asahi Photo Studio in Honolulu. When those classes got too big, they moved to the Izumo Taisha Shinto Mission in Honolulu.
Many of the well known Ryukyu Kenpo instructors of the 20's and 30's taught or demonstrated in Hawaii. Chogun Miyagi was another Okinawan kenpo master who demonstrated and taught in Hawaii in 1934.
If you look at the books from the 1920-30's on the "rare book list" link here: http://seinenkai.com/ You'll see that Gichen Funakoshi, Choki Motobu, Kenwa Mabuni, and Mizuho Mutsu, all referred to Okinawan Karate as "kenpo" or "Kempo".
I am very familiar with what you are saying, reason I have brought it up again. For it is being discussed over at SJK, I thought I'd throw that out and see what you had to say.
I am glad you decided to post this. I use to talk to Pat McCarthy about it years ago and he was very much into what you are telling me.
I have the book you are talking about. We discussed it before and you mentioned Bruce Haines had some good information, but the Hawaiian info was not up to date. Now it is?
The term Kenpo and Kempo is misleading IMHO... Do you still think J. Mitose went to Okinawa? Or did he stay in Hawaii? He brought back Ju Jutsu and Goshin Jutsu, the fact is I believe "Kenpo" is a law/certificate. But Kempo is the correct word and spelling, after all this time it is still... The word Kempo never was changed, it was Karate that was added, or the term "China hand" was changed by G. F.... Donn Draeger mention's it in his book "Asian Fighting Arts". And explains it as an evolution of a change. Very interesting
I'll find the reference for you about "Kenpo" (later). You may know about it already. Getting information from you is difficult. I suggest that some one else write a book to clear up all the misinformation that occured with the original book. I hope Thomas Mitose will on his revision.
You are attacking and not answering what I asked about the time frame of the book and Kaji. That is a clue if you want to know. Your action is very easy to read IMHO...
Need to ask the exact question or have you in the right mood to share. :bang: Even then the sharing is not what was asked. LOL
I'm not referring to Bruce's book "Karate History and Traditions". That was just a small example of the research he did while competing his Masters Degree in history at the University of Hawaii in 1962. The bulk of his research is contained in the master thesis he wrote, and his personal notes.
Maybe to westerners who don't speak Japanese. Either term is used interchangebly by Japanese and Okinawans when spoken or written in English.
I don't recall ever saying that Mitose went to Okinawa. There was plenty of Okinawan Kenpo in Hawaii for him to learn.
There was also plenty of jujitsu in Hawaii, not just Okizaki dojo.
Saying that he brought back "goshin jutsu", is equivilent to saying he brought back "self defense". "Goshin Jutsu" is not a style, it's a concept.
That belief is not supported by martial arts historians or practitioners.
That belief also is not supported by martial arts historians or practitioners. "Kenpo" was good enough for the Okinawans in Hawaii, and many of the ones still practicing in Okinawa.
I don't really understand why your so hung up on the minutia of a system you don't even practice.
But I guess discussions about whether it's "kenpo" or "kempo", "gung fu" or "kung fu", "jutsu" or "jitsu", "wing chun" or "ving sun", "jujitsu" or "jiu jutsu" or "jiujitsu", is what keeps people typing instead of training.
J and me got into a debate over that too. Turns out I won.
N for the win. Now he has to remove the "M" from his keyboard. Pretty funny stuff!
As far as typing and training. I do both.
I still believe you have failed to answer the question about the time frame of the book and other thoughts. You are shuffling sideways on this one. But I expected it.
Perhaps you can fill in those of us (including myself) about the timeline of this book. When was it written (according to you)? What is the book about, etc.
Post 30 contains the location, about Mitose's book. The book was written in 1947. The story is at http://seinenkai.com/salute-mitose.html
The other book we are talking about is Bruce Haines book that now John said is no good, but his notes and other material was
Typical Double talk, or as I mentioned Duplicity. So many stories, quite amusing really.
John again lets discuss what I asked you about, regarding the book and "kenpo karate" and who coined that?
Why I don't believe it was used right in the first place even if you mention Kenpo was used by others prior as in Motobu etc. In Motobu's book "Karate my Art" are you saying he used Kenpo as a term in the book, and not Kempo and Karate?
If you will notice at the site I posted, in post 30 they give all the glory to W. Chow for the term "Kenpo Karate".
Kempo and Kenpo are not the same, as far as I am concerned. If you and others don't agree, that is your/their privilage.
I am in disagreement with much of the stories that have come out of your group, you will notice. That is my privilage.
As I mentioned, lets talk to Bill Ryusaki, we can get together anytime you like.
We have now fallen into the abyss and are arguing about the letters of the alphabet.
What is the world coming to?
Gary, what the hell are you talking about ?!? Motobu used the term kenpo karate. Read his book. You've given ZERO basis for saying there's a difference between keMpo and keNpo. The kanji is identical, it's only the transliteration that varies. Just because Chow started to refer to his art as Kenpo Karate rather than Kenpo Jiu Jitsu like mitose did, doesn't mean he originated the name.
Separate names with a comma.