Low kick defences

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by YODA, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    By either being a better Thai Boxer - or failing that taking the fight to an environment that he doesn't function well in, e.g. the ground. But that means you MUST have a GOOD understanding of how MT works - not a theoretical "web surfing" or "video watching" understanding but an understanding that comes from practical experience. Find a good MT club, train for a couple of years, have a few fights, spar with them using non MT tools - get in the kitchen! Do!
  2. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    Ground fighting! Yes good idea... Muay Thai boxers might be prone to a Jujitsu Style approach, they like to grapple, and you should never hold on to someone who wants to take you to the floor. Could be a flaw in the technique outside the sporting environment.
  3. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Not if the other option is getting your ass whupped!

    Groundfighting is not an ideal scenario - but going to the ground intentionally and continuing the fight there is way better than going to the ground unconcious LOL!
  4. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I trained that way for a while, just long enough for it to scare me and to teach me the painfull basics! :)

    I really wouldn't like to train that way all the time. Another thing they concentrate on is conditioning. So if they don't hack you to the ground quickly they'll burn you out! On the other hand they only have the same tools as us, they don't do anything the rest of us can't learn to do!
  5. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    Hi Yoda

    Maybe now you would like to enlighten us on "Fistic Law"?

    Or is this the wrong place? :)

  6. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Yes simon - this is the wrong place.

    Its' the wrong person too LOL!

    I'm sure Andy D will be able to give you a much better insight into this that I can.

    Basically it's the ultimate expression of the "Daily Decrease" that many JKD people adhere to - for me it is far too idealistic. If only it where that simple.

    Post a Q of the JKD forum - I'm sure Andy will pick it up there.
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I'd say being a better fighter in general would work. Unless you're fighting in the ring.

    Failing that a couple of whacks with the nearest bottle or stool couldn't hurt.
  8. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Hey Jimmy - he can pick up a bottle or chair too ya know?

    Sorry - you've lost me there. Care to elaborate? How do you get to be this "Better Fighter"
  9. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Simple, how good a fighter you are is independent of your style, and much more dependent on natural ability, training, and common sense.

    Basically I was just trying to say that you wouldn't necessarily need to be a Thai Boxer to beat a Thai Boxer.
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    And now that the video's downloaded, yes, you could redirect that kick, if you were his sort of level. The mid-level one anyway, the lower level one you'd want to dodge. The higher level one you could block up and do evil stuff with. Again though, if you had his type of speed and strength.
  11. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    You don't need to be a Thai boxer, true. However you may need to be able to defend against Thai Boxer style attacks. And many styles don't teach throwing Thai boxing style attacks, it doesn't matter how good a fighter you are, if you haven't practiced defending against that sort of attack its unlikely you will be able to deal with it well.
  12. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    I agree - what I was saying is that to beat a Thai Boxer you need to understand Thai Boxing. Understand from an experiential viewpoint rather than a dogmatic viewpoint.
  13. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member


    Funnily enough this kind of discussion came up last night at training. I train under Bob Breen and we were talking about where we would all like to develop our various martial skills in the future. I mentioned Thai boxing as an area that I feel deficient in...

    He said something along the lines of... to fight a Thai boxer (or any other stylist but it was Thai we were talking about) you first have to become a Thai boxer. Then to beat him you have to not play his game i.e. you take him down or do something that is outside of his field of experience. Essentially you screw up his game plan. You don't try to out box a boxer do you!

    Obviously the guy will be trying to do this to you too unless he really is a pure "whatever" stylist. But this is what Yoda was saying about understanding the style you are up against and then using something else to make sure that your oppponent can't deploy the tools that he wants to.

    A good example: Take a pure Thai fighter in a MMA event. Then just looking at one tool, say the long knee. Nobody can refute that this is a great tool in the right time and place but its also pretty easy to shoot on. Hence the use of a shorter, upward, sharp knee in MMA type events i.e. to stop the shoot. You take the Thai base and modify it for the event.

    We've also recently been working on Vale Tudo type skills with Neil McLoed. He's currently training for the Extreme Brawl on 15th December so our sessions seem to be getting more intense. Anyway many of the boxing/thai tools that we've developed in other classes are now being modified for the MMA arena. Punches, kicks, knees etc are all getting far snappier so that you don't give the guy a handle to come in on or manipulate you with.

    So you understand the game and then modify it to the environement that you are fighting in. However you have to train in the style for a length of time to understand it fully enough to start modifying it.

    There's no point saying "I would evade..." or "I would block.." a Thai low kick unless you have really been face to face with a Thai boxer and really understand what its like to have such a kick coming at you. Like Yoda said, you can't just watch a video, analyse the move and then pick your defence of choice. You don't have the physical experience... it would be like trying to learn Chi Sau from a book or without a partner... what's it supposed to feel like?

    That isn't to say that it would be impossible of course but then you come down to natural abilities and these are harder to improve.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2002
  14. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Very well said dredleviathan :D

    Looks like your training is going well too :D
  15. slc

    slc Banned Banned

    In a very vague sort of sense I would disagree with some of this.

    Using the example we are on now...

    (And everything from here on should probably have "I think" in front of it :)

    To fight a Thai Boxer (and win) you don't need to understand Thai Boxing.

    Take it as a street scenario, if your opponent knows Jujitsu, Karate, Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Karate or JKD etc etc etc, you don't need an understanding of all the different styles in order to sufficiently defend yourself and put your opponent in a position where they cannot fight anymore.

    Be aware of the sort of attacks you could face and prepare for them. Although the attacks vary they can fundamentally be broken down into a few possibilities, your body can only do what it can do. (If you are faced with a guy with telescopic arms and titanium fists you are probably in a lot of trouble :)

    Unfortunately I have seen a few nasty street fights. In one case I saw a (apparently very good, "Champion X") kickboxer get beaten very convincingly by someone who has absolutely no training in any kind of fighting whatsoever (just a nutcase).

    It is impossible to train for a scenario against any style but it doesn't mean you can't effectively do it.

    Having said all that; of course if you understand your opponents style very well you stand a much better chance.

    As I say this is merely conjecture.
  16. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    No of course you can't prepare yourself to fight against every style of martial art. This is especially true of the opponent like the one you mention who is simply a nutter. Fighting no style... this is starting to have a familiar ring to it!

    However within the context of the question of "what would you do against X,Y,Z" its impossible to say unless you have trained in X,Y,Z. If you haven't you can only postulate what you might do.

    Taking Yoda's list. He gave 9 possible defenses to the Thai leg kick as taught by Ajarn Chai. Yoda then asterisked the ones that he has actually managed to have success with whilst facing this technique. He knows they work for him. My list is of those techniques that work for me is shorter than Yoda (as you would expect from my lesser experience) and also slightly different i.e. of the 9 I find several work better for me. Their all great choices some work for me, some work for Yoda and no doubt Ajarn Chai has to hold himself back by only selecting 9.

    You can pull off effective counters to techniques that you haven't come up against before but this is then purely down to reaction and being well versed in fighting concepts in general. You can only prepare yourself for a certain number of eventualities and hope they are the right ones.

    Another thing that Bob says: Know 5, own 3, use 1.

    This is true on whatever level you look at it i.e. You know five entries on the jab, you own 3 of them totally, but when it comes down to it you can only use 1.
  17. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Yeah well said dredleviathan!

    That was my argument for cross training. Many people only considered cross training to add to what you can do, but its as important to prepare/test yourself against other styles.

    I still think a good club should teach bits of various styles (mainly attacks) to prepare for these things. Although I accept this is only possible to a certain extent...
  18. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Is being prepared for a Thai boxing attack the same as understanding Thai boxing? I don’t think it is. Although I can see how learning Thai boxing will give you the greater understanding, but I don’t think this is an effective way of preparing yourself for all situations. How many styles would you have to train in to get only a basic understanding of them.

    The people that will have the problems are the stylists. In my experience, people that concentrate on one style, only learn to fight against that one style. Maybe their style is effective enough for they’re attacking needs, but what a weakness in that style to practice defence only against their attacks.
  19. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    There's a solution to that - make sure your art includes everything that other styles do (at least a little bit).

    In the end you can only attack in few different ways. There are an infinite number of variations on anything but only a few are actually very different from each other.

    We know high kicking is bad and doesn't really but we still train it purely to learn to defend it and so we need to be good at the kick to make the learning worth while.

    Just look at your body and see what possible movements you can make then get a partner and start flailing away in all the possible ways (probaly have on person attacking the other defending) just gives you a feel for the range of human movement.
  20. Phoenix

    Phoenix New Member

    What would Bruce lee do against a low kick?

    1. Don't stand still to allow one to hit you?

    2. Stop kick?

    I would think he would attack a MT fighter the same way he attacked Chuck Norris in Return of the Dragon. When he went direct at Chucky Cheese, Chucky Cheese creamed him. So he danced around and then sneak in devasting attacks.

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