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Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by EmilM, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Have him take a proper stance. Not quite as ridiculous as Steve Buton's, but what ever could be?
  2. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    personally F-Q, I like when guys say that crap. I've never been one to say no to physical confrontation. If a guy asks you to come "prove that it doesn't work" just say 'ok.' Go over there and take care of business. You'll be doing a lot of his students a favor, lol. Or maybe they'll just think you're a jerk..... definitely a jerk, but i'm over it.
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    It's a principle, and I know it seems opaque, but if we do that as standard, then they've established that they can actually say and claim anything they want, and never have to prove it.

    What they're actually doing is manipulating public percpetion of what 'proof' is - they could easily prove their stuff, easily, by entering competitions or getting serious opponents in to test them. Nothing could be easier - if they could really do it.

    See, it's corrupt to always have the doubter having to be in the other corner of the ring - naturally, that's corrupt, because as anyone can work out, the doubter might not be able to fight them - they might be intimidated in to silence in that case.

    So, to avoid corruption, let's say that anyone who says 'if you doubt me, come to my gym and I'll give you a lesson' should also be open to the doubter sending someone else to test them - someone who is up for it. I mean, if they're up for it, they're up for it, right?

    So, what we want to do is send some serious fighters down. But, we can do that easily - we'll just enter Emil in the local MMA competition - that will solve all our problems - he can demostrate the effectiveness, no one has to look a dick by going round starting fights, and we can arrange forother,serious opponents who want to fight him to be there.

    In fact, for the sake of streamlining all this stuff, why don't we just establish the principle that people should prove their stuff by going to where the other fighters are waiting for THEM? Or, never claim anything - that'd be cool too.
  4. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Maybe I'm not capableof doing that, though? In which case, he looks like he was really brave, when really, it was kind fo cowardly. Plus, then it looks like he's proved his effectiveness, when really, it's anything but.
  5. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    i hear all of you points, loud and clear. i understand where you're coming from, especially when martial arts is supposed to be about losing one's ego, and not saying 'step on up for a woopin.' Which i'm not even sure that's what Emil is saying. He could be saying he prefer you feel his techniques energy over just seeing it with your eyes. (giving him the benefit of the doubt here)

    I want to make it clear i wouldn't go around starting fights. I think it's every man's right to answer the call though.

    also I see the threat of physical violence in a debate the same as i see raising one's voice in an argument. You have nothing else to back up your point so it's a last resort. notice Emil hasn't made a comment in his defense in quite some time now...
  6. Semper Fi

    Semper Fi Valued Member

    Yep, his answer to our questions is.. It works for me, thanks and here are 3 more videos...

    Personally, I like to measure where I stand if I were within a reasonable driving distance, I'd be honored to be put to the test of effectiveness. Nothing to do with my ego at all, just my desire to improve self.
  7. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    exactly! even if i lose, we both should have learned something.
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, I know, but... my problem isn't like a personal ego thing with Emil - it's, if we say 'this is urban conbat kung fu', well, is it? Is this realistic self defence?

    You know, sometimes we forget, but teaching useless self defence is tantamount to aiding the attacker - so we need to assess and consider deeply what we teach.

    Emil hasn't gotten in to a flame war, but, he also HAS presented his stuff as self defence. I don't give a god damn if he can beat me up, lol - that consideration is meaningless - I care about real people, trying to find real self defence skills against bad peopletrying to hurt them. If he presents it as 'real', and useful, then it's up for discussion, whether he argues about it or not. And the discussion as to its efficacy isn't about 'hey I'll beat you up if you say this isn't useful' - that's crap, totall crap attitude by EMil as far as I'm concerned. Imagine trying to get a police force to agree to run your programme based on tellimng them that you'll beat them up if they don't believe you, lol.

    As for, did Emil really mean that -well, yes he damn well did, of course he did. We all knwo there are 'subtle' skills, but we should all reject this idea that real demonstrations of effectiveness are invisible to camera - because it they're invisible to camera, I'm betting my mortgage they're invisible to attackers too.

    As for it being ego to challenge these people -no - I don't think it is - by any means. god, anything but - if only we COULD deal with them like that. Wang Xiang Zhai dealt with them like that, but they STILL twisted that to their advantage. The ONLY option is to make them prove what they say.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2008
  9. EmilM

    EmilM Valued Member

    [ame=""]YouTube - Urban Combat Self Defence Seminar '08[/ame]​

    I am happy to see my fellow martial artists questioning everything they see because I think this is very important, especially when it comes to self defence and street-effective martial arts.

    I recently taught a seminar on my approach to self defence, I am constantly refining and working on my tools and I think it is great that we as martial artists question how effective things are all the time. Although it is difficult to know exactly what would, wouldn't or at least could work without testing it in a real situation, therefore all we can do is keep training and hope we will never have to. Again kind thanks for taking an interest in what I do and I am always excited to see different approaches and schools of thought to my own on the topic of self defence, without each other we would have nothing new to learn.
    Warm regards and best wishes, EM.
  10. JeetKuneDero

    JeetKuneDero Valued Member

    You're joking, right? It's obvious you do not take your own advice and "question how effective things are all the time." And what's that about "its difficult to know exactly what would, wouldn't or at least could work without testing in it in a real situation"?

    What absolute nonsense. What the heck is suited up, full contact sparring against resisting opponents for, coupled with going all out on training equipment? Or is it that your "martial art" (sic) does not need the typical boxer's /mma fighter's workout? Do you even train against anyone or anything but compliant individuals in video clips?

    Really, just who is it, other than yourself, you think you're fooling when you have someone come at you nice and polite?

    Give me a break. You are a Bruce Lee wanna be through and through. Not that you even have that right - you once posted a clip of Lee practicing trapping as a defence of your own passive practices. Don't believe for a moment it fooled anyone who knows Lee no longer trained that passively against others his last 8 years or so.

    You mention you revere Lee and yet you make a mockery of the full contact aspect of he was all about.

    Here, I'll make this real simple for you - and nice and safe, you know, the way you obviously like it. Put on your yellow track suit, add a baseball catcher's gear, grab your yellow, black stripped nunchaku, pretend you're Bruce Lee and lash it out from under your arm at the air. Now, do the same thing again, but this time, strike at something - a tree, whatever. If something that safe for you, something that simple, fails to teach you the huge difference between striking air and striking something solid, well, you can always go back to your delusion knowing you at least tried to grow up.
  11. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    Emil you would have a better understanding of what works in the real world if you found yourself a resisting
    I took Sil Lum Pai Kenpo for several years and I had the same problem with that Academy as well. NO RESISTANCE. It's a whole different story when you woang pak da, pak sao da, then *WOOP you get scooped and are on your back.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  12. EmilM

    EmilM Valued Member

    Full contact sparring has been a big part of my training for many years, I have not suggested that these video clips encompass my entire training regime nor would I like them to. I don't think it should be about ego, and I am sorry if people have seen me as trying to grab some sort of limelight with my videos and articles, etc. I film, choreograph, write and develop new ideas because the martial arts are very interesting to me but I am happy being a small time, independently run class in the UK and not a part of any major MA franchise; being able to be very selective of who I train as I have been for the last decade of my teaching career.

    I like these clips to mostly be a glimpse at how I am developing my trapping and self defence ideas as time goes on. What you see in my videos is a mix of non-traditional wing chun, boxing, tae kwon do, kenpo, filipino, muay thai, 5 animal kung fu, aikido and ju jitsu with the jeet kune do. My jeet kune do may not look exactly identical to your jeet kune do but that is the beauty of it. I believe that makes learning from other jeet kune do artists, which I do, a much fuller experience.

    I believe there may be some sparring clips online of myself but if I remember correctly they were light contact and probably not what you two are looking for. I would however be interested to see a video clip of either of you two's JKD and the sort of training you focus on which I think will help in my understanding of what you are more looking for as proper jeet kune do.
    kind regards, EM.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  13. Simplicity

    Simplicity Valued Member

    He has trained with Bruce Lee's original students


    On your website you claim to have trained with BLS. Which one's? Since I know most of all of them. I would be interested in knowing who...

  14. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    I like your "put up or shut up" attitude. Doesn't bother me at all.

    I never said anything about "proper jkd" i think that is a bit of an oxymoron.

    I also don't think you need to be constantly FC sparring in order to advance as a martial artists. I understand that in order to teach a technique, it is often necessary to show it used in an ideal circumstance. However that is for spoon-feeding Noobies, and only part of teaching a technique. If you are an instructor I would expect to see you 'training' at a higher level. So with resistance, without variables, and with someone more skilled.

    You posted the videos, and so you asked for the critique. Just as if an actor makes a film he should expect it to get reviewed.
  15. Stevie Bhoy

    Stevie Bhoy Valued Member

    Sorry for butting in lads but got to say, the above quote is straight, direct and efficiently to the point. Go's to show Bruce's way of thinking "The art of fighting, without fighting" is totally valid, lol !!!
  16. JeetKuneDero

    JeetKuneDero Valued Member

    Can you at least post something along the line of this clip?

    [ame=""]YouTube - Golden Eagle Martial Arts[/ame]
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2008
  17. pmadojo

    pmadojo Valued Member

    Dae han is right

    "You posted the videos, and so you asked for the critique. Just as if an actor makes a film he should expect it to get reviewed"

    The very first post on this thread is

    "One of my students has a channel on youtube and showcases some of the videos he's made of me. Let me know your thoughts"

    Im not sure that its really a student who puts all the stuff on

    In my opinion the last clip is the best one I have seen. I think that it is far to flashy for JKD and would probably get you whipped in a fight. Sell it to me as a fun martial art and I am fine with that.
  18. february

    february Valued Member

    I find that a little depends what you define as FC sparring and under what "rules". If it is a big part of what you do then I would have thought it would give you an insight into what is effective, and we wouldn't see you using generally redundant techniques in your self defence.

    As I've said before, fair play to you doing what you do, I think what gets most people's goat is that firstly you're passing it off as effective self defence, which it clearly is not, and secondly you're posting the vids in the JKD forum, when what you're teaching (at best) is a mish-mash of various techniques, executed for flash rather than substance. I see very little JKD.
  19. DaeHanL

    DaeHanL FortuneCracker

    all flash no bash. agreed Feb. I think if Emil finds what this to be "effective" in FCS he isn't be truly honest with himself. Or like a stated before he is training with a bunch of noobs and has convinced himself he's a master...
  20. Stevie Bhoy

    Stevie Bhoy Valued Member

    I must admit, personally I prefer watching Kung Fu Panda, lol!!!

    On a serious note, Emil im no expert, probably the same as the majority on forums like this. Fair play to you, you obviously think you have IT but from my own limited experience, there is always room for improvement.

    It would be interesting to hear your answer about a previous suggestion on this thread about being taught or training with OBLS's. After all its common courtesy to answer a question. The reason i am asking is because you seem to be extrovert in some of your techniques in your youtube videos. For example high kicks. To me that is an invite to crack you right where it hurts. Maybe people on here will disagree but each to their own.

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