The "Basic Four" ground position flow drill

Discussion in 'MMA' started by YODA, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I hope that is a typo.
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Now, back to the subject matter. I appreciate the work gone into this but do not think these are great examples of pins. Furthermore, if it is about a flow between the 4 pins then photos showing the transition steps would be much more valuable. EG Side into Mount transition, where you could show some common ways to avoid the trap, like blading and windscreen wipering the passing leg would be much more value than showing side, and hey presto Mount.

    Also, I don't know why 'low mount' was shown, 'low mount' is just a good mount not reached yet, 'high mount' is mount and if you are setting up subs you should have your knees up under the armpit for both control and limb isolation.

    Kesa, which I don't like anyway, the trail leg is over extended, I understand the base value in it but by putting it so close to the other guy you invite a simple shrimp, hook and pop out defense which will result in having your back taken.

    Side, I don't like booty in the air, I understand it puts pressure on the shoulder, but it creates too much gap on the other side which allows escapes. Furthermore, in the X body picture the pressure arrows are incorrect because of this.
  3. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Give me something to hold onto (like a gi) and score heavily for pins and im with you, in sub grappling or MMA scarf isnt too high a priority, you get rolled or your back taken and you only have limited subs available to you

    in judo its different but sub grappling and MMA, you can keep it ill have back mount thank you very much :)
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I learnt a sequence if about 10 subs from Marc Mcfann tht flow straight from it! It's also one of Erik Paulsons favourites

    Like anything it has to be worked, which is one theory I have as to its fall from grace, but it really does offer a hell of a lot!its also easy to "abandon" if you start to lose it
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    and how many of those subs get pulled off in competition on a regular basis

    the theory falls down slightly because in the UK as you know a lot of judo guys move into MMA and sub grappling, and none of them work scarf that much (except as a pin from a throw and a transition into something better) even though they had plenty of experience in it
  6. Tom O'Brien

    Tom O'Brien Valued Member

    I like kesa gatame & side control just to control his body for a short time while looking to submit or mount. Thanks for this post.
  7. The Immortal

    The Immortal Valued Member

    For me, the Four Basic ground positions are:

    1) Guard (Full, Half, Quarter)

    2) Cross-X (Side Control, Lateral Press)

    3) Mount (Front & Back)

    4) Top Down (North-South, 'Pole Position')

    So my Basic Four differs from the OP's in one regard: the 'Scarf Hold' position is not counted, rather the Top Down/North-South pole position is one of the Four counted instead.
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think half guard should be one of the basic four, he amount of stuff that happens in that position is crazy!
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Actualy Ronda pulled off one or two recently...:)
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    How much grappling have ou done man? :)
  11. The Immortal

    The Immortal Valued Member

    I trained Wado-Ryu jujutsu (karate) and judo in my teens, and since I was 17 I've trained with a variety of different partners in grappling.

    So, the answer is a lot.

    I love grappling, wrestling and close-in fighting, but still, my self-taught style has evolved over time. In actual combat I generally prefer striking even though one must know how to grapple for the purposes of countering entanglements.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I think this would be easier if people tried to make it basic 3 positions, since the 4th seems to be fluffy when you put so much scope into Guard and under that umbrella can include full, half, quarter, open, butterfly, de la hiva, 50/50 and a billion other things saying Kesa or NS is an equal position to that umbrella term is nonsensical.
  13. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    what subs, you mean when she switched from scarf to mount to get the sub because all she was doing in scarf was holding the girl down and giving her a change to get her back, like she did in the first round....:)
  14. The Immortal

    The Immortal Valued Member

    I appreciate a good simplification, Matt, same as every other guy, but I don't agree with you here, friend.

    There ARE Four Basic positions in ground-fighting, and the reason for this is that for your ground game to be complete, you must be able to 'round' the opponent 360 Degrees.

    That means from the Front (90 degrees), Back (90 degrees), and both sides (90 degrees left, 90 degrees right). Four times 90 equals 360 - encircling the opponent and covering all angles.

    The idea there is to be able to control, submit or destroy your opponent on the ground from all angles.

    So, you have Guard & Mount (Front), Cross-X (Sides, Left & Right), Top Down and Back Mount (Behind-Back of the opponent) positions: starting and covering all of these, you have your 360 degree control of the opponent.
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    There are historically 4 and they are based on hierarchy and importance of position in terms of use, not 360 degrees covering of the body, hence mount and back mount were always included and not north/south
  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I'm not simplifying I'm refining. The north south position doesn't contain anything near the complexity of the myriad of guard positions. Making them equal points on the compass for 360' control isn't realistic.
  17. The Immortal

    The Immortal Valued Member

    Fair enough, you know your own best.

    There are a lot of efficient techniques executable from the pole position, though.

    As for the 360, we'll agree to disagree on whether it is 'realistic' or not.
  18. python44

    python44 Valued Member

    Get rid of the Kesa Gatame....your butt is too high on your mount and cross body positions. Also on the cross body position you only have your knees close to your opponents body only when attacking. Your arms are also in the wrong place as well. If not attacking the keep your legs straight, on the balls of your feet, knees off the ground and legs wide. Just curious do you train in BJJ?
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Certainly do NOT get rid of Kesa - its a staple move in the arsenal of a decent CACC player and Judoka.

    Kimura approved!

    Attached Files:

  20. python44

    python44 Valued Member


    Kesa Gatame is a pinning technique and if not done correctly can get your back taken or be reversed. You have to use the modified method. Instead of placing your arm around his head you place it underneath his arm which prevents him from taking your back or escaping.

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