The Great JKD Plague

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by february, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Thus far you have pointed out the faults (in your view) of Kenpo and FMA Not to mention Systema and Muay Thai. Of course Straight Blast Gym and MMA events/fighters get no respect either. Aside from Wing Chun is ther anything you are'nt condesending toward?
     
  2. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Regarding reading too , alarming most here have not read that much on JKD it appears. Want to test it? I can rattle of some random page numbers from books & you tell me first line on that page? But I really wouldn't go there. 'Knowing is not enough (reading, etc) , we must do / apply (practicing) ' , but reading sure helps you understand things and without reading Bruce Lee's the founders notes on JKD, very hard to understand fully what he was advocating. And I have photo copies of a stack of his notes unpublished in any book too. If peopler like Slip read a bit , they wouldn't need to query Bruce's opinion on Thai Boxing, etc its all there, as is him fighting with Thai boxers.
     
  3. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Windtalker have met one Systema guy, it's total BS! As you do Krav Maga , I'm betting its KMW (Dareen Levine, etc) no wonder you won't say with whom if thats the case,his knowledge is limited and mainly confined to Civilian KM. Anyway Eyal Yanilov has said Systema is - complete BS made up by the Russians to con rich Americans out of money ; I've met Eyal and spoke with him, on Self Defence I consider him one of the worlds leading authorities, he knows his stuff.
     
  4. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Windtalker , no actually I more pointed out Muay Thai, FMA, etc has Sweet FA to do with JKD, and the founder thought so too, & hence scarcely a mention of either in all his notes.

    SBG - Matt Thornton is great! it has little to do with JKD as Bruce Lee taught it though, very little. And if you wanted to learn & research Bruce Lee's art you won't be able to do so with those guys alone, that much is certain.

    Wing Chun traditional is very limited, modern Wing Chun systems like Randy Williams, Leung Ting', Emin Boztepe's,etc - try to deal with all aspects & eventualities of a fight incl. ground, etc. Best Wing Chun guys Rand Williams, Emin Boztepe, etc are not as well rounded or overall as good as top JKD guys like Erik Paulson, etc. So much for me praising Wing Chun above all else, or not saying it's not without faults or weaknesses.
     
  5. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    How many times are you going to doge questions about your credentials as opposed to insist that someone else put up thiers? As of yet I have'nt read the first post mentioning what styles you trained in or for how long nor did I even ask for info. there which could be verified.

    As for reading books my preference is to actually do as opposed to quoting what somebody else thought. Too much reading and too little sparring has little benifit to aquiring fighting skills. For that matter too much seminar and too little practice does the same.

    Did Bruce specifically mention that Muay Thai had no place in JKD? If you would care to quote that source I could probably find somebody that has a book.

    Last time I checked none of the Wing Chun instructors you mentioned were offering ground-fighting clinics based on what they learned outside from the Wing Chun experience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2007
  6. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    It's turning into one of "those" posts again.

    KickinIt,

    I'll ignore the ignorant personal attacks, and focus on the questions that you failed to answer:

    1) In the sparring footage of the link I posted, what is your explaination for whly Lee used mostly snap kicks (round & groin) instead of your much-talked-about side kick?

    2) Aside from the possible maiming technique of eye-gouging, what are MMA fighters not doing that Jun Fan/OJKD is?

    3) You complain about MMA fighters showing a lack of variety; what do you think they should be using, instead of their simple, effective techniques?

    It would also be nice if you would admit you were wrong about the "sloppy boxing" of the fighters I listed and that you were wrong about the ground fighting all being the same and that you were wrong about all the standup fighting being Muay Thai.

    Hope that was short enough for ya.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2007
  7. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    So you're saying that even if one learns his toolbox from a source outside of Jun Fan, but it contains the same tools (same punches, kicks, no flowery, excessive techniques), that even if the practitioner adheres to the principles of JKD such as power-side forward, interception, five ways of attack, "water in the hose", Bai-Jong or similar stance, that it's not JKD, because he's not studied Jun Fan? Do I understand that right?

    Do you consider Jun Fan the "core" of JKD? If not, what is?
     
  8. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Actually YES. Back in the Kenpo forum you did bash the art form. Here in this very thread you made negative comments about both Muay Thai and the Systema. Your basis for an opinion toward Systema is based upon what someone told you not what you have seen and done. The Systema bunch offered me the chance to return and train with them and from that my personal experience is more relevant.

    And you have made pretty nasty remarks about MMA events/fighters right here as well. The whole bash this school of Krav Maga (or whatever) and promote yours is typical for promoting a school to make cash. Before reaching any conclusions about the validity of anything I try getting a little first hand experience not relying on books or what somebody told me. Not that it makes any difference to me the school is based on Krav Maga of Darren Levine. When I see it does or not work from EXPERIENCE not the word of somebody I'll make an informed opinion.

    While reading all those books did'nt you find that Bruce encouraged the idea of looking into other styles? While Bruce might not have incorporated either art into his Jun Fan there was no restrictions by him for us to not use either of them.

    Maybe if you walk into a Systema or Krav Maga school you would actually know what you are talking about. Give then a chance to show you as opposed to what your favorite instructor has to say.

    Quit reading and listening to hype and do something for yourself!
     
  9. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Windtalker ,

    Your ignorance is appalling! Randy Williams studied BJJ & incorporated/modified techniques from it to add to Wing Chun and others.

    Walk into a Krav Maga school? I've trained with more people than you have including Moni Aizik (CKM) & Eyal Yanilov (IKMF), and other lesser known ones. Also with Israeli IKMA student, that was only for short time though. My 'EXPERIENCE' as you put it in Israeli martial arts is more than yours, add to that I've talked informally also with many Israeli people & experts to know some are making suspect claims regarding being ex-special forces veteran, etc - when they come to USA or Europe.

    KMW Dareen Levine , Levine learnt only Civilian KM , there is Military KM also he knows little of that, and comically yes it's hilarious but true tried to sue IKMF in the courts for rights to use the name 'Krav Maga' in the USA! An American sues the founders the Israelis - lol! Civilian KM he does know, no question but some things he either picked up wrong or just did not keep modifying them to improve them, e.g. simple things like 'plucking hands' to get rid of chokes, Levine does different to Israelis - IKMF , and according to them less effective or wrong.

    As for looking into other styles in JKD, if the founder thought Thai Boxing & FMA incompatible with JKD & of little value, not much to offer - we can be assured in terms of JKD accordng to the founder they are indeed just that. For Thai Boxing for example he lists far more cons than pros and called them the 'John L Sullivan of the leg' aka slow/sloppy, we can be cerain he would never have advocated learning all Thai boxing (as Inosanto Concepts group do, they practice the whole art). Again there has to be a point or purpose - go study indepth for several years Muay Thai / Savate / Full Contact Karate / Tae Kwon Do - WTF & ITF style, perfect the techniques of each style so you have multiple diff. reverse punches or crosses, multiple different roundhouse/hook kicks, etc, etc. Add them too what you already have in JKD, is it overkill or what? If you can strike hard with reverse punch/cross from JKD, or with Hook kick from JKD - do you really need to go off and learn all the variations on it from all those other arts? , when they are essentially very similar travelling same angle, etc. Bruce Lee did not become so phenomenally good by following that stupid approach, and its why no Concepts person is remotely close to his skill level or moves like him at all, nor will there ever be.
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmm... that's a lot about Bruce. Does you tongue get tired of licking his nutsack as often as you do?:D

    But seriously... we're still waiting to here which Thai champion Bruce supposedly sparred with in Thailand and under what ruleset they sparred. Surely you can take a break from suggesting seminars, challenging death matches and waxing poetic about your love for Bruce and actually post a citation to the babble your on about no?
     
  11. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Callsignfuzzy,

    1) Where is the link to the footage? Have you seen ALL the footage I have it from multiple angles. He does use a lot of side kicks actually , maybe not in clip you posted link to which I've not seen yet - where is it? In one part of the sparring he uses stop hit with side kick that floors the person sends them flying back. Besides full contact side kicks from him to legs , would mean hospital to the persons concerned - Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura; Inosanto had bad headaches afterwards from the blows and bad bruising to body, Bob Baker that he close punched had pains for weeks and felt like he had 'split his sternum'.

    2) Not doing that JKD is? Trapping , Straight Leads, Straight Blast, Side Kicks to legs, Oblique Kick, Inverted Kick, Finger/ Joint Breaking, Biting, Pulling Hair, etc, etc. Trapping is weak practcally non existant in MMA or just plain crude as hell , Lead jab weak does no damage, Straight Blast crude as hell, etc. Let me ask you do you consider those things ineffective for the street , any of them? As they are not used in MMA competitions, does that make them not effective to you or just that nobody can do them that well? If you believe things listed are not effective and rarely if ever used in MMA, maybe a JKD forum is not best place for you to be on. Someone like Dan Inosanto who has seen them all as they say incl. top MMA guys and competitors (he trained Yori Nakamura, Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, etc) says Bruce Lee is only one he has really see that could 'blow people away on the first motion' move once and end it, and that overall as a martial artist he feels nobody will ever surpass Bruce Lee ' when they made him they threw away the mould' he has said.

    3) Already answered.
     
  12. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Slip The Jab,

    I'll post Thai boxers name , full details and even a link to photos of the Thai boxer in question, who was champion in Thailand.

    IF.............. you post direct link to your fight record & photos?

    When you are ready!

    I asked you before remember as have others, so you post that link , I will provide the information you request no problem.

    You are the one claiming to be a competitive Muay Thai / MMA fighter, okay so where is that fight record and some fotos from your fights? You said clearly it is in your 16,000+ posts - well just post a link direct to it , & don't say the usual & tired do a search.
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter



    LOL!:D

    You're such a fraud.
    You're the dodge master. You come onto MAP... issue a lot of death match challenges... tell people that disagree with you to attend seminars and basically just spend a lot of time nuthugging.

    I think you need to check what your saying genius.

    1) I didn't claim to be a professional competitive MMA fighter. Never have.
    Go back and read my response to your post. If you spent less time with your tongue up Bruce Lee's ass and more time reading what's posted you'd know that. Seriously go back and read what I had posted... not once in 16,000 plus posts have I ever claimed to be a professional MMA fighter. How daft can you be? If you can't quote it then just hush.

    2) There are some photos from early fights of mine are on here. Member CosmicFish has even reposted them once or twice and member Domino has commented on them once or twice. If you're too lazy to use the search to find them... why on earth would I be bothered to take time out from flaming your silly ass to oblige you?

    So really Kickin' It stop being a total BS artist and talking about stuff you have no clue about (Muay Thai in particular). No one buys your tripe. I suspect not even you. :D

    I will now fully expect to receive yet another bareknucks death match street challenge by PM that you then (like all the other times) ask me to keep private. In which you run on at length about how when I find out 'who you are' and 'what you're reputation is as a fighter' will have me quaking in my boots.... (and apparently I'm not the only one here at MAP who's received your by now infamous 'bareknucks deathmatch challenge by PM'...

    well guess what tough guy...

    It's got me ****ing myself with laughter. :p
    BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  14. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    There he goes again good loe SlipTheJab or SlipTheIssues more like.

    Rather than post that one single link , a single line even , he instead does the usual long winded post. Maybe some Wing Chun training could have helped Slip like basics ' The shortest distance between two points is a straight line' (that straight line here being a direct link & fight record, the long route would be long winded 'say anything just don't post that damm link' type post).
    See my previous post I must be Johnny Wishbone Psychic Extrodinaire as I predicted he would again not post that link and say 'use the search' and he has 16,000+ posts, he is funny and predictable that much I will give him.

    Not Pro MMA fighter , you did not say 'Not Pro Muay Thai fighter' though , so you claim to be one? Or neither a Pro MMA guy or Pro Muay Thai guy? Which is it.

    There's something seriously wrong and very suspicious when you go around calling people Trolls, saying they don't know what they are talking about; whilst claiming to be a competitive fighter - only one who will do anything to avoid posting his fight record, and I mean anything! - even if it means writing 1000 words rather than post a link , thats what you'll do (expect another very predictable long winded Slip post with NO link again).

    You've asked me things I've answered no problem. You asked for Thai boxers details Bruce fought no problem will give you full info., as soon as you post that elusive link and fight record, I asked you first remember in anycase.
     
  15. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter



    z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-zz

    I'm not overly fussed about what Muay Thai champ that Bruce Lee fought because it's a figment of your imagination. I'm actually curious why you're using my fight record as a dodge when questioned about your fantastic stories of good old golden nuts himself (Bruce to that mothertruckin' Lee)? :p

    Surely old golden nuts and his match against a Muay Thai champion can stand on it's own merits no? :confused:

    Or is it that you don't actually have any real evidence that Bruce Lee ever sparred with a champion level nak muay.

    Which is it by the way? First you said sparred... now in your last post you said fought. :confused:

    Keep it coming though... it's cute that you suggest myself of all people should study Wing Chun. Does that mean I can nuthug like you do? Oooh Oooh!! I know maybe then I can issue bareknucks deathmatch challenges via PM too?!?! :p

    PS... as for the 'which is it' bit in the post above. Don't be a dumbass... you're the only one who's ever mentioned anything about me be a professional MMA fighter. Those are you words... no one elses. You can't quote where I said it because it wasn't said. So really it's best to stop cramming your foot in your gob when your already up to your knee. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  16. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    KickinIt-

    This link. You probably missed it 'cause you fell asleep.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=kH6npy3bfng&feature=related

    That's part of the fight game. If you're training things right, you get hammered now and then. Bruce Lee didn't have a monopoly on hitting hard.

    First trapping is non-existant, then it exists but is bad? Both can't be correct. At any rate it's hard to trap someone who's been trained in movement and to throw combinations, although I see clinchwork (non-existant in Jun Fan?) as being a natural progression of trapping.

    A straight punch with the lead hand? Done all the time. In the fighting world, they're often refered to as "jabs". Look it up!

    Ineffective unless the opponent is moving straight back. Most MMAers, when facing a flurry of punches, level-change and shoot.

    That tech has a limited window of opportunity; round kick is easier and has a higher probability of landing

    Just not that good in a match-fight

    You break your training partner's fingers? Joint breaking is unnecessary, as once a hold is locked in the opponent taps.

    Takes no skill and was actually present in early UFC/Vale Tudo events.

    Many of the techniques you've listed are either redundant, unnecessary, or have a small window of opportunity. Some of them have actually been used. Again, if you'd actually sat down and watched an MMA event, or a few of them, you'd know what you were talking about.

    Are you actually going to pay attention to what I type? If so, then...

    Some of them are unneccessary. Oblique kicks require close range, where punching is easier, more natural, and doesn't compromise the base. As for trapping, complex traps are unneccessary in the street. If the guy's blocking two or more of your shots in a row, you're not doing something right, and trapping is the least of your concerns now. Biting requires a certain proximity, and quite frankly isn't necessary in many bar fights that can be ended with non-maiming techniques. Joint breaking? If the fight's lasted long enough for you to secure a lock, it's gone on too long.

    Straight lead, straight blast, sure, against an untrained brawler in a barfight, should be used. But so can the boxing combinations used in MMA, which I suggest might be preferable as the require the defender to be worried about more than one angle.

    Side kick to the knee? Requires more room than is typically present in a gratuitous assault, and requires an angling of the body (pre-fight) which compromises your base and misallignes your spine. There's also a low probability of disabling damage.

    I don't think MMA fighters can't do them, it's just not suited for the cage. Against, you know, guys who can fight. Gratuitous violence and match-fights beggin differently; you may wanna pick up some of Geoff Thompson's liturature on this, or read "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie. But once a fight has begun, if your initial volley fails to end it, you find yourself in a match fight... just like an MMA match.

    See, so if that's true, why would you expect anyone... you, me, Randy Couture, Dwane Ludwig (who has KO'd someone with a single punch in an MMA match) to have that one-shot stopping power? By your own words, wouldn't that be impossible?

    Also, it would be nice if you could admit I was right about the MMA fighters I listed not being "sloppy boxers", and that you're wrong about groundfighting being different, and that all MMA standup is not Muay Thai.
     
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    LOL!
    Fakin' It just got owned. :D
    Thank God someone has the patience for clown patrol these days.
     
  18. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Mister Logic to the rescue! :D
     
  19. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    what i am trying to say is learn the foundation of jkd then if you choose to incorperate other things from other sources so be it, everyone is different and things that work for you may not work for me.

    power-side forward,interception,5 ways of attack, Bai jong, simplicity,directness are'nt they part of the foundation of JKD?
     
  20. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Hey, I thought they were, but I didn't know if that was your view. A quick check on any thread here will show that opinions varry greatly.

    Not trying to argue anything, just wanted to be sure I understood what you said.

    My original question was a mostly hypothetical one: do "you" (refering to anyone on this thread) think that one can develop JKD independent from formal JKD training? For example, as I gave above, taking striking techniques from boxing and karate and some submission wrestling (all of which include techniques that exist in Jun Fan, when combined), then adhering to a JKD-like philosophy of small phasic stance, simplicity, directness, power-side forward, interception, and so on. Would that be considered JKD, with identical techniques, principles, and philosophies, even though, hypothetically, it did not have a direct lineage to Lee? Why or why not?
     
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