The Great JKD Plague

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by february, Nov 12, 2007.

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  1. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!


    no ruffled feathers here bro, i was just giving my view of JKD

    and from what your saying, i think some of that is basic jkd principals but my jkd is'nt yours and vise versa but thats the whole idea
  2. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!


    Thanks for sharing your views.
  3. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    and same to you bro,

    are you near this jkd school?
  4. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Mapquest says... 2.5 hours away.

    Oh... Lamar Davis II teaches it! Cool. Could be a Friday night trip or something.

    Yes, I have no life, I'm not doing anything on Friday nights that would keep me from traveling to another state every once in a while.
  5. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    mr davis knows his stuff and he is a great person too.
  6. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Callsignfuzzy , asks fore things that aren't in MMA fights but in JKD , for every one NATURALLY he lists why they are not too effective - lol! Now that is funny.

    Callsign , who have you trained with that can Straight Blast or Close Range punch very hard? None of the MMA fighters can in UFC for a start, or if they can they never do.

    Straight Blast - is not just effective when opponent is moving back, you can use it at very close range to get an opponent off you and knock him back. Clearly you are clueless the way Bruce Lee did it and why he felt it effective. As for 'ineffective unless an opponent is moving straight back' - lol, you train it so opponent moves to side or ducks you continue blasting him, again it's obvious you've never trained with anyone that can do it well.

    Side kick - most nearly all MMA guys stand in frontal stance like a Thai boxer, if you stand in frontal stance actually very easy to side kick an opponent moving in at you to leg or knee, don't raise up and **** leg high just lift off floor and launch it good chance they will run right into it. If you were to stand side on easier to launch and hit with side kick, harder to do power round kick with lead leg & less economical and harder to land rear thai kick. Even if you were to stand in frontal stance, if you train it you could still land side kicks to legs. Side kick also good low to supporting leg as opponent kicks at you.

    Oblique kick - just not good in a match fight? Savate guys use it granted its not MMA, but it is a match.

    Straight Lead - yes they do jabs in MMA that tickle oponents to set up power shots. Post me a link to MMA fight with KO with a jab? There could be some but there will be very, very few of them, I've never seen one myself. Straight Lead is power shot to KO or damage someone not irritate them like a jab, big difference. Never seen any with really powerful lead punch in MMA.

    Trapping - is practically non existant......, your English or American language skills are rather lacking, practically non existant does not mean non existant it means almost , so rarely used it almost is. When on the rare time it is used it is crude as hell.

    Finger/Joint Breaking - is unnecessary? Break someones fingers , their arm , or their leg and see how keen or capable they are of continuing to fight you.

    Biting / Pulling Hair - takes no skill you say? Heard of Kino Mutai? Guess not :- there is skill in it , they do specific angles & type of bites to cause maximum damage & pain, not just a wild bite, and they train it hard.

    Could list load more techniques in JKD not used in MMA but effective. Stomp lead front kick with heel to hip of opponent as they throw kick at you, etc, etc. Try kicking against someone that can do it well, you get kicked hard in the hip whilst on one leg, you'll know about it.

    Okay , clearly you are a 'MMA groupie' and you've clearly not seen people outside the MMA guys that can actually do the above techniques really well. Tell me , who have you trained with that can do the Straight Blast to know what you are talking about, and to say it is not effective? And these other techniques?

    If the above things are not effective in MMA and not suitable for the cage, and you would also say I persume not effective for the street? As these deadly MMA fighters would essentially use what they do in the ring and maybe few foul tactics in the street?

    If the above things are not effective for the street , what are you doing on the JKD forum ? Whatever you do , it's not JKD at least not much to do with what the founder of the art advocated. Again, who have you trained with really good at Trapping, Straight Blast, Straight Lead, Side Kick, etc - to know they are not effective or that practical? Name them.

    'I don't think MMA fighters can't do them, it's just not suited to the cage' you said, well Bas Rutten MMA expert would disagree with you. He thinks side kick is effective , but problem for him is few people can throw it really well & hard, so you are mistaken with 'I don't think most MMA fighters can't do them' , they don't because they cannot do it very well, hit hard or explosively with it. Most nearly all MMA fighters don't have killer side kicks hence them not using them much if at all & hence them not practicing or perfecting it much either - go to UFC training centre see if they practice the side kick? Most nearly all can't do Trapping and haven't trained much in it, if at all, etc. Virtually all MMA fighters stand in frontal stance making it harder to throw side kicks , another reason they don't do them too often.

    If those things are not practical or effective in MMA, but especially in the street - FORGET JKD you neither need nor want it, you are wasting your time researching or practicing it if so much of it is ineffective, and stick with your MMA.
  7. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    What a load of funky ass tripe.
    Kickin'It... just because you learned how to post doesn't mean you should. :D

    It appears that you think by posting long winded posts (which are mostly your own fantasy BS that it somehows makes you look better or your arguments look credible or that you've refuted what Fuzzy posted.

    It doesn't and you haven't. ;)

    Just stop the fantasy techniques.
    Just stop flapping your gum about stuff you know nothing about.
    Just stop the BS.

    It's that simple. :p
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  8. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned


    It is you who are into 'fantasy' , you know you and your imaginary friends 7 imaginary fight record and such like.

    Everyone here including myself is wondering why you cannot post your fight record or a direct link to it? Nobody knows the answer but yourself, I would hazard a guess that the record is one you are too ashamed of to show, or you simply don't have one.

    I asked you several times already for it , remember? as have others. I asked before your Bruce Lee Thai Boxing question, you post record I will answer your question & any other, you have my word , if I don't answer it after you post record, I promise never to post here again, how's that. So where is this mysterious elusive record? I'm expecting a long & pretty amazing one as with 16,000 posts you truly are a 'Cyber-Expert 10th Degree in Martial Arts'.

    You can post ONE SINGLE DIRECT LINK to it, yet you do ANYTHING & I mean anything! to avoid doing so. If that means 20 posts (to add to your 16,000+ already) with thousands of words,that's what you do.

    Your behaviour is highly suspicious and people are wondering here , what you are trying to hide. Not to mention very predictable, expect another post with more nonsense but no link or fight record, he could do that with a single line, but no no that's too easy why not post a few hundred 'beat around the bush' words?

    A Pro Muay Thai Fighter that never reveals his fight record? It's a first for me, most fighters are proud of their records or even if with losses , they are still forthcoming with it, but not you though? Strange, very strange. Did you in fact fight in 'The Kumite' with Frank Dux (look up Frank Dux on opening page of Bullshido , to right hand side) , and therefore cannot reveal the secret tournaments and opponents, hence no record? You are in the Orient after all.
  9. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    That sounds quite feasable to me. Learning the basic tools such as the straight lead (not a jab as seen today) is probably the best place to start. Then spending a little time applying said techniques using the JKD formula (again concepts) helps.

    And I firmly believe that everyone wanting to practice JKD should learn Jun Fan. The JKD of Bruce has the concepts and provides good techniques as welll. No better model of JKD exists from my point of view. Yet Jun Fan is somebodys personal interpetation of JKD and is not supposed to be yours or mine. JKD is about individual growth not a Jun Fan factory. Where the latter true JKD would be a style.

    Far as the end result goes there are sometimes big differences as to how the person does JKD. For example Inosanto has IMHO a lot of FMA and Silat based material. Neither Demi Barbito or Matt Thorton seem to care much for the Wing Chun technique again that's just my view. While some that practice JKD have a big influence from Wing Chun like James Demille. Far as I'm covered they all practice JKD. Maybe I disagree with some of thier views yet provided they are not style-minded (must use lots of Wing Chun for example) we probably are close to being on same page.

    There's been a lot of suggestion here to learn Wing Chun on a formal level to better understand JKD. That I believe is an individual choice and might or not prove benificial. Spending a lot of time with the Wing Chun by practicing as much with long-term JKD/WC students did'nt help me that much yet it could someone else.

    Again I doubt long-term formal Wing Chun training is neccesary. If we spent time learning everything Bruce was influenced by we by end result would be doing everything but JKD. Seriously would anyone recommend that you or me take a lot of classes in Fencing or Savate. What about Shotokan or Kenpo? If there is a specific art that really proves usefull like Muay Thai for me and BJJ for a number of former classmates that's entirely different.

    Anyway I though your post was very good.
  10. february

    february Valued Member

    I thought that the Jun Fan material mostly consisted of modified Wing Chun (as this was Bruce's major MA background at the time) and Boxing influences. Note: modified Wing Chun, thus a background in formal Wing Chun wouldn't be nessecary.

    Physical modifications I think would be things like, turning on the balls of the feet more, stamping the heels for extra power, shooting chain punches straight out instead of in a circular motion, 45 degree fist etc.

    Hopefully, the more years of experience I gain in JKD the more insights I will have into what Bruce was doing, until then knowledge and it's assimilation are the short-term goal. The long term goal is letting go of all that I've accumulated.

    I guess a good grounding in this would be uselful for developing one's own JKD, but then everybody has their own path. For me, JFGF is the vehicle for JKD, understanding the concepts gives me a better interpretation of what JKD is.

    All the cruddy old arguments about whether Bruce discarded trapping, Bong Sao, Chi Sao, or thought that MT was rubbish, or would theoretically think that UFC was crap, or how much influence Wing Chun had on JKD etc. means squat and moves our art and it's practicioners backwards.

    Just because Bruce Lee discarded or dismissed something, it does not automatically negate it's effectiveness or value.

    For example, Bruce didn't feel the need to explore FMA as he felt it didn't add anything to JKD. That's not going to stop me practicing it and through my own experience finding that it's an effective MA that I can incorporate comfortably into my JKD (whether it be the "attributes" of that system, physical techniques, weapons and defences etc.)

    Eventually after years of training, thousands of rep's and sharpening our tools, we'll reach the phase where we are able to "let go". Only then will we be truly able to call what we do Jeet Kune Do.
  11. february

    february Valued Member


    You do JKD no justice. I only hope that your "students" or the general public don't use you as a yardstick with which to judge our art.
  12. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    It's a first for you to provide background? Which post contained as much? Because I haven't seen anything from you along those lines. Quoting books and talking seminars is more your style. And of course arguing with other posters about most anything.

    Stop with the double-talk. First you badmouth SBG then later praise Thorton in a different thread. Later you praise Wing Chun then point out what you consider thier faults? Make up your mind! Far as Randy Williams and other notable Wing Chun instructors goes I respect them as good instructors of Wing Chun. Yet I have'nt seen any BJJ in any of thier material. Nor much else other than Wing Chun.

    Somehow you decided to begin arguing the politics of Krav Maga in a thread about JKD. Pointing out the politics exist in other art forms is different than nutriding a specific version of KM or JKD. Far as Systema goes you stated your opinion (correction what somebody told you) and I stated mine based on first-hand impression. The difference being that I looked for myself and you cower behind somebody else.

    And quit talking about what you see in MMA events until you actually watch them or have enough real experience to understand what goes on in there. Muay Thai in a front stance? That's almost funny. No fighter with a good straight lead? Ever heard of Bas Rutten? My cousin practically nutrides old Rutten (there are worse role models) and constantly points out that very point about what Rutten does.

    While on the straight blast you mentioned that it wasn't effective when a opponent is moving back? Maybe you could attend a PFS seminar down the road. Besided I've used the straight blast not just read about it before. When done properly the opponent usually does move back to keep from getting hit and you keep applying pressure by moving forward. Did'nt you ever hear that in a Wing Chun seminar? Before you accuse me of nutriding yes Paul Vunak has a big impression on my thinking. Yet I don't go around nutriding him and quoting everything he said before. For that matter I have specifically went and said I disagree with Paul on certain things and his PFS is great for him yet not for me.

    Couple of quick thoughts
    1. Finger/Joint breaking-Watched Jester break his own hand slamming fist into a concrete porch. Missed the opponent during a ground and pound routine. The end result? Had to pull Jester off the s.o.b. Did'nt cause much other than ****ing Jester off. BTW. Jester used to post here so many know who I'm refering to. He's my cousin and someone I miss sparring with.

    2. Biting/Pulling hair-Really takes skill? My niece and nephew do that to each other all the time. And they are not even in grade school yet. Far as I know they have'nt taken martial art classes before.

    Had I mentioned taking Sambo you would talk about having read something in a book or go by what somebody told you to point out some faults (in the opinion of somebody else) about the art form. And I could REALLY care LESS about what anybody thinks about the different Krav Maga branches.

    Grow up and actually take classes instead of reading books and going to seminars all the time!

    BTW. Falling back on Slip and his experience does'nt lend credibility for you or diminish his in any way.
  13. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!
  14. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    What does he teach? Book-Fu? Seminar-Do?
  15. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Nobody has suggested that Slip has tried to hide anything except YOU.
  16. february

    february Valued Member

    LOL - He claims to teach JKD to a small group of closed - door students in a community centre Oxford UK, working on word of mouth in order to maintain "quality".

    Attempting to ask him to go into any further depth than this will not compute with him. His subroutines aren't complex enough to handle the request and doing so will only invoke an embedded procedure whereby he automatically fires off a PM with a deathmatch challenge and/or repeatedly asks forum members to post their fight records.

    It's like the Matrix. On a commodore 64.
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


  18. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Mark Hatmaker hits hard at ANY range. He's an MMA guy. Also a few kung fu people I've trained with, but nobody of note. Can't remember the name of the sifu. By why hit hard at close range when you can hit hard at LONG range? Close range is for harder things than the fist, like knees, elbows, head, etc.

    Which would move him where? That's right, straight back.

    Actually we played around with the side kick for about an hour yesterday in training. The side-on stance eliminates your sprawl and makes the rear weapons harder to utilize. It virtually invites someone to single-leg you or take your back.

    I'm actually pretty good at a side kick, and it's got very limited use. It's not that damaging to the knee when it's bent in a fighter's stance, it's telegraphic from a fighter's stance, upon recovery it can easily expose your back, it knocks the opponent back which takes them out of range for any follow-ups, will hardly ever result in a KO, not bad as a stop-kick, bit longer ranged than the front kick but again requires a change in possition of the hips which eats up valuable time and requires a degree of space that the fight might not afford.

    And you have yet to respond about the sparring footage on the link I posted. Why didn't Lee throw any side kicks?

    1) Being a match with far more restrictive rules than MMA, it's not a great indication of how it could be used in a match-fight, which is what a street assault turns into when it goes on for more than a few seconds.

    2) Even though they're trained in it, the "coup de pied bas" is rarely used. Side kicks, hook kicks, front kicks, even crecent kicks were used in these matches... but not surprisingly, the round kick (fouette) was used at least ten times more than any other kick. Oh, and the side kick to the knee was used without any apparent permanent damage...

    On the occations where it actually landed, the CDPB was used more as a sweep to off-ballance than as a kick to damage. Incidentally, Hatmaker, an MMA guy, uses a very similar kick, but he does it from the clinch, which helps to maintain ballance and to help muffle possible incoming punches.

    Sure, just as soon as you post a link showing that ANYONE can produce a KO with a lead-hand straight technique. I'm not really sure it can be done. It's not fair to critisize someone if they can't do the impossible.

    I asked you to provide a list of things not done in MMA that were done in JKD. The first thing you listed was "trapping", then you contridicted yourself later. Don't play this came with me, you can't win.

    *sigh* Go back to the context of the original question. What do MMA fighters NOT do that JKD guys do. You listed finger and joint-breaking, which is unnecessary in MMA competitions. The reason it's unnecessary is that once a joint lock is taken to the point of pain, the opponent gives up (usually), so there's no need to break it.

    I also contend that if you've gotten to a possition to execute a joint-lock in a fight, and it's so serious that you feel the need to break it, then you've probably had ample time and opportunity to end the fight without having to resort to maiming, which can lead to jail time. A knockout shot or a choke hold probably presented itself earlier in the fight.

    As well, some people can actually continue fighting with broken bones. I've heard stories from cops about guys on PCP who would literally smash their own hands to bits trying to get out of the back of a cop car. For more concrete exaples, and this is why MMA is so much fun:

    1) In his fight against Royce Gracie, Jason Delucia ended up with a broken fibula, but he didn't stop fighting until Gracie had locked in an arm bar.

    2) In his fight against Frank Mir, Tim Sylvia got his arm broken, but still wanted to continue the fight.

    3) Forrest Griffen once had his forarm broken in a fight, but actually went on to knock his opponent out with his other arm

    4) Randy Couture got his arm broken during his fight with Gonzaga, but still won.

    I have. But biting itself taked no skill. Kino Mutai makes one better at biting, but any schmuck can sink his teeth into someone. Just like an untrained brawler can knock someone out, but boxing training makes him better at knocking someone out. And aside from the jaw conditioning, there's little in Kino Mutai that really improves upon the untrained bite. I could elaborate, but I get the feeling you're just nit-picking here. Bottom line, 99.9% of the people who bite other people never studied Kino Mutai., and have no special skill.

    I've trained that with Hatmaker and in my schools JKD class and it's CSW class. When sparring I've found it's got a small WOO, and requires you to have a faster reaction time than the already-on-its-way kick. It can be done, and I'm sure it's been done in MMA at some point, but quite frankly it's hardly a revolutionary technique, and certainly not a high-percentage one.

    If you'd actually taken the time to read my entire post last time, I mentioned that a few of them were useful in a street context, though not nearlly as many as you'd listed. Go back and read my post again, starting with, "Are you actually going to read my post this time?"

    I would disagree, and quite frankly don't have to justify being on this forum to you. You're just not important.

    Well, I'm pretty damn good at the side kick, straight lead, and not so bad at the blast. I've found opportunity to use trapping a bit, though there are folks who are much better.

    Had seminars with Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace, who have some reputation at being good at kicks. My karate sensei, Richard Dixon, wasn't too shabby himself, but since he doesn't do seminars, you've probably never heard of him.

    Mark Hatmaker-straight lead. The man trains nearly a dozen varieties of lead-hand techniques, including Dempsey's "lead jolt" from which Lee's lead was taken.

    I've worked with some JKD and WCKF guys at AMAC. These are mostly "lowly" practitioners, but at the least they're better than me at trapping. I've learned from them what I can. I still think trapping has limited use; even with the WC guys you've talked about, the footage you show never shows them utilizing trapping outside of Chi Sao. You're not about to tell me that Chi Sao simulates a real fight now are you?

    He also thinks it's got a small WOO. In his first book he says the only time he'd use it is if he missed a round kick. "I am not a big fan of sidekicks. I make them when I miss a low kick and the opponent comes in right away... I believe this kick is easy to block and counter." (Bas Ruttens Big Book of Combat, vol 1, pg. 97)

    Wow, I actually just caught you making a claim you couldn't back up. Huh.

    Another question, not rhetorical, I want an answer: if it's that hard for "ye average practitioner" to throw a side kick, at what point does it start to violate the JKD principle of simplicity? It it takes (arbitrary number) twice as long to refine than a round kick, doesn't that make it "complex"?

    Also, it would be nice for you to admit you were wrong about the MMA fighters I listed as being "sloppy boxers", and that all MMA standup isn't Muay Thai bases, and that all groundfighting does not look alike, since I think I've proven all those points well.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  19. KickinIt

    KickinIt Banned Banned

    Callsignfuzy nice post of pure Poop yet again, worrying thing is you are actually thoroughly convinced what you are saying is 100% true.

    Anyway, why are you on a JKD forum? The majority of things in JKD Bruce Lee advocated you do not believe are practical, and you are clearly a 'MMA Groupie' (books, posters on wall, DVD's, friends round get the beer in when UFC is on, etc) , so SERIOUS constructive advice forget JKD completely , stick with your MMA , JKD is only going to slow your progress in MMA if you have tp practice things you deem ineffective or impractical.

    From what you write , it seems blatantly obvious you haven't trained with many in JKD that have much idea of what Bruce Lee actually taught & advocated, and for certain you've not read a great deal on the subject either, so again why are you on a JKD forum? Why don't you forget JKD & stick with MMA?

    Hilarious stuff too that you take yourself so seriously 'it would be nice of you to admit.....', most MMA guys are indeed 'sloppy boxers' - Anderson Silva, Chuck Lidell, Rampage Jackson, etc - all known for powerful hands , yet all 'very sloppy' at boxing. At boxing just hands they would get totally plastered by good boxers inside a few rounds, potentially one round. Good amatuer boxers are better than them, never mind the pros.

    Regarding simplicity of side kick, it is more the point - people do not practice it hard, many in the MMA world neglect it and concentrate on practicing their other kicks. Those in MMA that can do it usually push , as they do with spinning back kick, its not explosive or especially powerful, many in full contact have been dropped with back kicks, etc (Benny The Jet, etc) but he doesn't throw it like MMA guys do, he does it with power and explosiveness, not more pushing type.

    Will watch the sparring clip in just a moment, I suspect you've not seen the whole footage or different films of it.

    On a serious note, it is a SAD very sad state of affairs where there are many in the JKD World like Callsignfuzzy / Matt Thornton, etc - that call what they do JKD & think they know a lot on JKD or are authorities on the subject , yet are 90%+ MMA guys, and advocate material - techniques/arts Bruce Lee most certainly never taught , nor advocated. There are many things killing JKD , politics, divisions, etc but this one I see as the foremost one. Why the heck these sort of people call what they do JKD, or others term it that , when it is 90%+ modern MMA , & they dismiss a lot of what Bruce Lee did as impractical, outdated , etc; seriously is beyond me.
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    What clown. Complete and total clown. :p
    Kickin' It... you got owned. Stop acting like a big girl and just admit it. :D
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