The Nine Schools

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by AndrewA, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    You can do a single kick, jumping or not, punch, grab, ankle pick, or any number of techniques. That's just the kata.
  2. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    When I speak to my students, I tend to use the statement not to think of the move but the movement

    A move is just part of a principal.
  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The clip looks like the typically traditional/formal training that's characteristic of the Jinenkan

    Towards the end of the clip he's doing some Togakure Ryu (ninja stuff) where the general idea is to damage the opponent's ability to chase you (eg striking their feet or legs with the weapon in your hands) and then create distance

    The kick he used is striking the ribs with both feet to propel him (& you) away. It's quite hard to create enough space/time to pull off kicks like this and I don't think he achieved this in the clip
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Regardless of the usefulness of such a technique, it looked to me like his ability to pull it off was limited by insufficient flexibility and a lack of explosive power in the jump (which is most likely affected by insufficient flexibility).
    gapjumper likes this.
  5. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    I haven't seen the video (at work) sounds like Hi Toh though. Archaic technique I think. I can see it as partly a good practice for distance and the ability to leap higher. I'd challenge anyone to show this being done well, as opposed to doing it more like a jump w side kick.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I bet if you got someone high up in TKD or TSD who excelled at the gymnastics side, they could put up a convincing show of it.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  7. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    Likely, but I guess looking at the viability of teaching something that is effective for most that train. This is not one of those techniques. Nor is it a technique you would likely use unless your opponent looks like they have cartoon stars spinning around their head.
    It is something that I looked at with what I do.
    David Harrison likes this.
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Pah! They still wouldn't do it Perfectly...

  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    hewho and Dead_pool like this.
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    There are 2 main kinds of double kick in the buj

    1 Similar to the kicks posted by Hannibal - typically jumping in and kicking with both heels - quite aggressive and is a kind of overwhelming technique

    2 Toes or balls of the feet to the ribs (similar to the earlier clip) - this is quite similar to (linked to) jumping guard and is used when the opponent is on the back foot
  11. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Just my view for what its worth, but Hitoh (Although the kata in the clip is Kaeshi Dori) like any kata is not a fight, they are a series of training exercises that train the body to respond in a certain way to an attack. The technique that is being shown is from Togakure ryu and as such there may be a simple reason why the person is doing a double kicking attack in this way. What i'm trying to say is that kata are not the be all and end all. Whats important to know is the Kuden, of what the kata is actually teaching. Unfortunately many people look at the kata and view the art from just that, and thats a bit like looking at the alphabet and saying "Hmm the English language, I can't see how that works"
  12. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    I can totally understand the value of the kuden/unwritten value of the technique. I just think that focus on making the body respond in certain ways, or expecting it to naturally. Is counter productive. As an exercise ala ten tobi... if like that fine. But teaching it like it is a move, not a movement. Is dangerous, and I have seen it taught that way by a number of higher ranked.
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    That’s true of course

    But... generally speaking (some exceptions) the kata should really be drills and therefore have martial value
  14. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    100% there a lot of things I teach that itself is not a move just a piece of movement. Totally agreed, I think it is all in the context that it is taught. I think I probably over explain it to my bunch, so they don't get the wrong idea that I expect them to get into conflict and immediately do something like drop into a kamae expecting an attack.

    That alone is so hard to get across to some being a transitional movement, not to mention taught so literally from the Ten Chi Jin.

    For that matter, does anyone actually teach Hoko no Kamae like the way it is illustrated?
  15. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    Plus, in reality you'd be launching into the opponent with both feet. It's not a high-flying kick like a TKD jumping front kick. So if you're not putting 100 percent into kicking both of your heels into your uke's ribs, you just do a little leap. If you practice this type of kick against a padded wall, it's easier.
  16. yorukage

    yorukage Valued Member

    Here is the best classification I can give based on my study at this point. I'm going off of memory here, so forgive me if I'm wrong on some points. I'd have to look through my notes and books to find exact timelines, but this is generally going to be very close to accurate.

    Togakure Ryu: Ninja, has their own densho, but also merged with Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu several generations back and uses their fighting densho also.
    Kumogakure Ryu: Ninja - Koppo Jutsu
    Gyokkushin Ryu: Ninja, developed as an offshoot from Gyokko Ryu, merged back with the main line several generations later while it was part of Togakure Ryu with the Toda family (I believe, I'd have to check my notes on that exact timeline).
    Gyokko Ryu: Koshi jutsu - Developed from an art originally from China, started independent of Ninja, but merged with Togakure Ryu long time ago and can be thought of as a ninja school. Even before it merged with Togakure Ryu, a lot of the stories from their history are very Ninja-esq.
    Koto Ryu: Koppo jutsu - Developed from an art originally from Korea, started independent of Ninja, but merged with Gyokko Ryu and then Togakure Ryu. Was held as a secret school, not taught openly during this merger time.
    Shinden Fudo Ryu: Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu - Old style combat art favored by Samurai. Not connected with ninja until it came to the Toda family. There are many other branches of this Ryuha still taught today in Japan, typically refereed to simply as Fudo Ryu.
    Kukishinden Ryu: Samurai School with several connections to ninja families through the Sanada and Togakure Ryu lines. There are other branches of Kukishin Ryu taught today, though not by the Kuki family anymore, they distanced themselves from the martial arts a few generations ago. Kukishin"den" is the branch held in the Bujinkan.
    Takagiyoshin Ryu: Jutai jutsu - Also called Hontai Yoshin Ryu for our lineage held in the Bujinkan. This is primarily a Samurai school. They had close ties with the Kukishin Ryu family and share techniques with each other.
    Gikan Ryu: Koppo Jutsu - Founded by a Daimyo, so primarily samurai. There are other lineages and some contradictions in it's history.
  17. noname

    noname Valued Member

    With regards to the aforementioned technique: I think there are techniques meant to teach and techniques meant to test.


    Also, I would say that the technique makes much more sense when someone is trying to cut your legs off with a sword.

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018

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