wingchun or jkd

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by hotrod1, Mar 29, 2004.

  1. hotrod1

    hotrod1 New Member

    hi there every one i'am quite knew to the arts but i hav been looking into starting either wing chun or jun fan jkd/kali but i'am not sure which one to comit my self to the sifu of the wing chun is william lai
    he trained under a Chu Shong Tin and i have heard wingchun is quite a good street defence the jun fan instructor is a dave carnell if any one can give me any advice on the effectivness of these arts and if they have heard of the instructors thanks
  2. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    how much time do you plan and how long?

    in the long run they would be both to do together. they have many options. wing chun it seems often has schools that are more about teaching rather then training, so you spar/shadowbox/excersize on your own. i don't know to much about jkd schools, but i know they are more adaptive and allow the MA to grow.

    a year of wing chun would help your jkd down the road by helping to better understand basic moves, centerline, and some other things. jkd is amazing, but is different.

    someday i would like to learn jkd. go to the kungfu form for wc info
  3. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Well - Dave teaches Jun Fan / JKD / Kali / Silat etc but he originally comes from a strong Wing Chun base so I reckon his place is a good choice if that aspect interests you but you also like the idea of the JKD approach.
  4. hotrod1

    hotrod1 New Member

    yes i do like the idea of jkd as well and kali silat my main interest is learning to be as effect as possoble as this is what we train for in case of an attack i'am very open minded and willing to learn what i can
  5. LS

    LS Full Metal Jacket.

    let us know how it goes.
  6. ANVIL

    ANVIL New Member

    Wing Chun

    There is plenty of information to be found on the internet about both Wing Chun and JKD, including the opinions on this forum, which I don’t really intend to add to here. However, I would recommend having at look at both arts (and indeed classes) before making your decision, rather than basing it on anything you may read. As for effectiveness, I tend to believe it’s the individual as much as the art they practice, so I can’t help you there, but…

    I’d be surprised if anyone other than Sifu Lai’s own students know anything about him because he has maintained a very low profile. The reasons for this are a) because he does not teach full-time and therefore does not advertise as such; and b) Sifu Lai is the only student of Chu Shong Tin currently teaching in Europe (as far as he is aware). This means that Master Chu’s name is not widely known in Europe and thus he and his students do not necessarily attract much attention. Nevertheless, Chu Shong Tin is greatly respected in his native Hong Kong/China and was one of the first students to be accepted by Yip Man, thus making him one of the most senior masters alive today.

    Sifu William Lai is originally from Hong Kong himself and trained full time under Chu Shong Tin – he returns annually to practise with his Sifu. Sifu Lai’s training method mirrors that of Chu Shong Tin, who has been referred to as the ‘King of Sui Lim Tao’. As this nickname suggests, a great deal of time is spent practising the first form, developing relaxation and correct arm positioning/structure. Progress is gradual and is dependent upon competence rather than time spent training, therefore if after 12 months you are still not competent, you will continue performing Sui Lim Tao until you are (although I am not aware of anyone taking this amount of time to satisfy Sifu Lai’s requirements!). Sifu Lai’s exacting standards do not endear his methods to everyone due to the fact that a great deal of patience is required and progress is too slow for many people. This results in a lack of student retention, but for those of us who remain, it means relatively small classes and lots of personal attention. I know of some people at some clubs who have learned all 3 forms and the wooden dummy in a 12-month period – if you are expecting those kind of results, I would try elsewhere. The progress that a diligent student can expect to make (dependent upon ability) is detailed on Sifu Lai’s website,, where you can also find links to Chu Shong Tin and some of his other students.

    I myself have trained under Sifu Lai for almost 2 years, and although my progress has not been particularly quick, I have found Sifu Lai to be an excellent teacher and a pleasant person who promotes a friendly, informal training environment, which I personally enjoy. If you are patient, and serious about learning Wing Chun, I would highly recommend you visit him. I’m sure some people will doubtless not see the necessity for such gradual progress, and they are entitled to their opinion, but during my time spent training under Sifu Lai, I have had the opportunity to witness some of Sifu Lai’s senior students touch hands with students of other Sifu’s, for example, I have seen my Sihing (who at the time had trained under Sifu Lai for 2 years) hold his own and dominate other people who have trained under a certain high-profile instructor for over 5 years, so on the basis of this (admittedly limited) evidence, his training methods do appear to pay dividends. However, I’m not here to advocate a particular training method/philosophy, just to provide some information about my Sifu as requested, but anyone who feels this method/philosophy is inadequate can always direct their comments to Chu Sheung Tin!

    All I know about JKD is from books so I’m by no means qualified to pass comment on it, however I have heard of Dave Carnell and believe him to be a highly respected teacher. I am somewhat confused however, by the fact that William Lai teaches in Sheffield, and Dave Carnell, to the best of my knowledge, does not. Are you sure you’ve got the right person in Dave, or are you travelling to attend sessions? There is a guy in Sheffield called Mark Hayes who teaches JKD, and I believe he is also a very good teacher, but I’m not aware of anyone else in Sheffield teaching it.

    Hope I’ve been of some use to you re: Sifu William Lai – if I can help you any further, please ask
  7. hotrod1

    hotrod1 New Member

    thank you for the infomation and yes i'am intending on travelling to train as there are not many clubs where i'am
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Just a note anvil the Wing Chun school in Belfast is headed/founded by a student of Chu Shong Ting called Ting Kwok Wai.
  9. ANVIL

    ANVIL New Member

    Chu Shong Tin


    thanks for that - i'll mention it to my Sifu, i'm sure he'll be very interested to know. Do you know anything about Ting Kwok Wai, such as his age, how long he spent training with Chu Shong Tin, when, and if he's presently teaching in Belfast? Up until now Sifu Lai believed he was Chu Shong Tin's only student teaching in Europe - he visits Chu Shong Tin annually and hasn't been told otherwise, so it's interesting to hear from you. Any more information would be greatly appreciated.

  10. NorwoodBloke

    NorwoodBloke New Member

    WC or JKD

    To answer the original question:

    I vote JKD!

    Because if you train JKD you might get to spar against people trying to hit you.

    Also in jkd you will fight with, and against, wing chun techniques.
    So you can decide if you like them compared to other the styles used in jkd schools.
  11. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Sure I have little more knowledge about Ting Kwok Wai though I'll have to get back to you on specifics such as age. He does still teach in Belfast (to an extent)- he runs a Chinese takeaway and has now semi-retired from teaching Wing Chun. But he still attends every grading and teaches private lessons to some of the senior students and he also gives Chi Kung (Spelling?) lessons periodically for any students who are interested. Basically his school is run by the students that he taught in his restaurant when he originally came over from Hong Kong though I think as well that he recently started taking general classes again (however I was in London at that time so I cant really say) his organisation is called the Northern Ireland Wing Chun Kung Fu Association (or NIWCKFA). I also know he trained at the same time as Bruce Lee as he has plenty of pictures with him and also acted in 2 of his movies, he has 2 dan degrees in Judo and a style of Karate I forget and thats about all I know of him. As far as Im aware some of the senior students have also went over to train with Chu Shong Ting in Hong Kong with an intoductory letter from Ting, in fact when I was at the club last week I heard that a senior student is heading over to do just that in 2 weeks time- so I think he is recognised as legitimate ok... The new website isnt up yet but Ill post you a link when its up and running. Apologies if any of my information isn't that clear but thats about the extent of my knowledge.
  12. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    If your experience of WC is that noone tries to hit you, then you have never experienced WC.

    The problem in WC that I see personally, is that it's rare someone tries to hit you in a non WC manner.
  13. ANVIL

    ANVIL New Member


    thanks for that ckava - i'm still a bit confused, and forgive me for possibly being a little premature as you did say you'd get back to me re:specifics, but...

    Chu Shong Tin was one of the first students to be accepted by Yip Man, (I'm not certain, but maybe one of the first 5?). Anyway, if Ting Kwok Wai trained at the same time as Bruce Lee, would he not be a contemporary of Chu Shong Tin, training under Yip Man? Having said that, as far as I'm aware, Chu Shong Tin won't teach anyone who has been taught under other Sifu's, only his own students, and with a letter of introduction, so that bit makes sense at least. Thanks for your help anway - my Sifu was intrigued by what you had to say (he's going to do some research of his own!).

    Thanks again :)
  14. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Would Chu Shong Tin be the same (romanization) as Tsui Sheung-Ting?
    If so, he's certainly listed as being an early student of Yip Man.

    No mention of Ting Kwok Wai that I've found so far.
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Hey Anvil, as far as Im aware Bruce Lee spent alot more time learning from Yipmans senior students than from Yipman himself I could be wrong but I think Tsui Sheung Ting was one of his instructors anyhow as I say Im not a wealth of knowledge on the subject, though as I say when they get that website up and running I'll give you the link and then you could contact one of the senior instructors for more accurate information.

    And incidentally Andy, I couldnt find anything on the internet about Ting Kwok Wai when I looked a while back but then I dont know Chinese so I cant really say there is no information about but anyway he was definitely a stuntman in 2 of Bruce's films I'll find out specifics for you and there was also an article on him in Black Belt magazine quite some time ago- I think it was called "from HongKong to Belfast: a Kung Fu masters journey"
  16. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    So was Jackie Chan. ;)
  17. ANVIL

    ANVIL New Member


    yes andy, that's right, Chu Shong Tin and Tsui Sheung-Ting are one and the same, and he was a very early student of Yip Man. :)
  18. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Though obviously not taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was. ;)
  19. ANVIL

    ANVIL New Member

    one of four

    As i understand it, Chu Shong Tin was one of the first 4 students of Yip Man (possibly 3rd), the others being Leung Seung, Lok Yu and Wong Shun Leung. I've also seen a couple of articles claiming that Yip Man, shortly before his death, suggested in an interview that Chu Shong Tin had surpassed his (Yip Man's) own skills in Wing Chun (of course the original source of this information seems to be untraceable!). But no Andy, you're quite right, I don't beleive he was taught the secret Ving Tsun that William Cheung was, at least I've seen no reference to it :)
  20. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Maybe he was, but it wasn't a secret then? :p

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