Yiquan Push Hands

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Feb 16, 2016.

  1. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    It's always fun to see who's got what. In most cima videos there is enough that is obscured to make it look unreal. This looks real and quite well done.

  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Eh, the guy in black, honestly, he was leaning forward kind of heavily most of the time and you could tell he doesn't have a strong root. Look at how his stance at times has his feet almost parallel to each other too. The other guy rather easily took advantage of this. I mean no disrespect to him, but I wouldn't call his end of things particularly well done.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  3. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    One doesn't root in yiquan. One stays on the balls of one's feet.

    The man on the left is taking advantage of his opponent's double-weightedness that is caused by receiving his energy (taking his weight) and giving it back to him. That is what's causing him to lean.
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    So you would argue that the guy is leaning in to far because his stance has been broken and if he didn't lean in he would already be pushed away.

    I get what you are saying but I am not convinced. The guy on the right is clearly rooted but the other guy is not. it is a good example of what happens when a person with no root attempts to put pressure on a person with a root. but in my opinion it is too one-sided to be a good example of push hands.

    EDIT : Dyslexia strikes again I ment - "The guy on the LEFT is clearly rooted but the other guy is not."
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  5. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    If both were equally skilled it would be a standstill. The lesser opponent will always end up leaning in these go-rounds.
  6. ned

    ned Valued Member

    The guy on the left is able to make his taiji work through his obviously superior structure/root , as everyone agrees.
    Often these kind of clips will show a seminar or demo in which a master will be pushing hands with a student so it's not unusual to see a one sided example.
    This should'nt diminish the skill and technique being demonstrated and as an example of using an art against non-compliant resistance (albeit within the constrictions of a certain ruleset) I think it stands up to scrutiny pretty well.

    I agree though that it's not a 'good ' example of push hands in that an encounter between more closely matched opponents is usually of more interest to the spectator much like ,say, boxing or any other sport ( as well as being more productive for for those taking part .)
  7. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    It would be nice to see two highly skilled fellows not play cautiously to save face. That is how it usually ends up on video. No camera and it's a different story.

    Would you mind posting one?
  8. ned

    ned Valued Member

    Already done it , see here ;


    ( not that I'd use your description but at least I put my money where my mouth is.:) I've yet to see (m)any other people post their own stuff in IMA or TC forums . )
  9. Mianbao shifu

    Mianbao shifu Just standing around

    The guy in black is using way to much force, just watch him move. Also he has a weak root. That is why he falls down so much.

    And you do use your root in Dachengquan (Yiquan)
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    - What's the purpose of "push"?
    - What's the value of "push hand" training?
    - How will you end a fight with your "push"?
    - Will you be satisfied with yourself if "push" is the only skill that you have developed through your life time?

    IMO, if you want to train striking, you should "punch". If you want to train take down, you should "throw". Just to train "push" only will not get you anywhere. If grabbing is allowed and a clinch is established that 2 bodies are connected, you just can't push your opponent away because his body will become part of your body. To assume that your opponent will never grab on you during "push hand" is not realistic.

    Don't give your opponent a chance to

    - run back to his car,
    - get a gun,
    - come back, and
    - shoot you.

    You want to keep your friend close, but you want to keep your enemy "closer".

    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  11. Mianbao shifu

    Mianbao shifu Just standing around

    I think you misunderstand what push hands is for, and what the posted video is.

    Study Chess you learn strategy. Study Sun Tzu Bing Fa and you also learn strategy. And that can help you in a fight or a battle, some military academies have classes to study Sun Tzu Bing Fa. But you would not carry a chess board or Sun Tzu Bing Fa to a fight or a battle.

    The video is simply a friendly game/competition, and push hands is a training tool, that is all. Dachengquan hits, but it also utilizes push hands training, as does Xingyiquan and Taijiquan

    But if you don't like it, or you don't approve of it.... don't train it.

    And push hands trained properly teaches you how to keep your friend close, and keep your enemy "closer".
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    In a basic nutshell it's to learn issuing of force and dealing with incoming force. Which I've stated again and again.And again.

    What's the value of asking the same question again and again?

    Mr. W.,you know I have great respect for you but I must come to the conclusion that either you're playing Devils' Advocate or you truly don't understand ph.I mean the training method. It's not about developing how to punch,or how to grapple. And it certainly isn't about training to develop a one note attack,namely a push.
  13. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The "push hand (or sticky hand, grip fight, ...)" is a good "integration" tool. Many MA systems don't have this. But besides "push", you can use "push hand" format to develop many valuable skills. To train how to "push" may be a good starting point, but you can go much further.

    Here is an example.

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  14. Mianbao shifu

    Mianbao shifu Just standing around

    That is Chi sao and looks like Wing Chun, it is a viable training tool, and Wng Chun is a good art, but it is not push hands for Dachengquan nor is it where you want to take it. You do striking, uprooting, qinna and shuaijiao as you progress in Dachengquan, but not in the manner you are showing in this clip.

    I apologize if I am wrong here, but you appear to be missing the point of IMA push hands training. You can take it anywhere you want t to go, but if you take it there, in that way, and use force and strength in the manner, it is not Dachengquan. If that is the way you want it to be then go train the arts that use Chi Sao that way and do not train Dachengquan. If I want to train Dachengquan, I do not go looking for a Wing Chun school and the reverse is true as well.

Share This Page